S3 E58: 💸 Confessions of a Bankrupt Dreamer: The Emotional Side of Bankruptcy with Robin Finney
This podcast is for educational purposes only and does not constitute mental health, financial, tax, or legal advice.
Episode Summary
Robin Finney, founder of Wandering Aunt and writer of Confessions of a Bankrupt Dreamer, joins Rachel Duncan to share how filing for bankruptcy unexpectedly led to greater freedom and self-trust.
Together, they explore the shame and stigma surrounding bankruptcy, the pressure to keep paying debt at the expense of basic needs, and how deeply ingrained beliefs about financial responsibility can keep us stuck. Robin’s story challenges traditional ideas of financial success and reminds us that financial hardship doesn’t have to mean giving up on our dreams.
💬 “And it got to the point where it was like, I either eat or continue being the good girl and paying my minimum payments.” — Robin Finney
In this episode:
Why being responsible with money doesn’t always mean making the best financial decision.
How shame and stigma can keep you trapped in cycles of debt.
What bankruptcy taught Robin about freedom, resilience, and self-trust.
Why rebuilding your financial life doesn’t have to mean abandoning your dreams.
⏰ Episode Breakdown
04:34 | How Do You Afford to Travel the World? | Robin shares the financial realities of eight years as a nomad, including unconventional income, house sitting, and the trade-offs behind her lifestyle.
17:19 | When Being Responsible With Money Becomes a Trap | How business investments, credit card debt, and the pressure to always pay her bills led Robin toward bankruptcy.
29:01 | Breaking Through Bankruptcy Shame | Robin and Rachel explore the stigma surrounding bankruptcy, finding nonjudgmental support, and why starting over can be a legitimate financial option.
43:42 | Rebuilding Financial Freedom and Self-Trust | What bankruptcy taught Robin about resilience, navigating financial uncertainty, and creating a life that still feels like her own
📚 Resources and links
Robin Finney is the founder of Wandering Aunt, where she helps people build self-trust and live more intentionally through coaching, retreats, and Soulo Travel Experiences. She’s traveled to more than 50 countries across six continents and spent the past eight years living as a full-time nomad.
Through her Substack, Confessions of a Bankrupt Dreamer, Robin shares the honest, messy reality of building a rich life beyond traditional definitions of wealth, including her experience navigating bankruptcy while continuing to pursue her dreams.
Connect with Robin Finney:
Website: Wandering Aunt
Instagram: @wanderingaunt
Substack: Confessions of a Bankrupt Dreamer
YouTube: Wandering Aunt
TikTok: @wanderingaunt
Also Mentioned:
The History of Bankruptcy in America: Explore how bankruptcy became part of the U.S. Constitution, including the influence of English debt laws and debtors’ prisons. Historical Background on the Bankruptcy Clause | Constitution Annotated, Library of Congress
Bankruptcy and Debt Relief: Listen to the podcast episode Rachel references about reconsidering bankruptcy as a financial tool.
🎙️ Join the Conversation
Click the big orange button on our site, right from your phone or browser, and let Rachel know: Have you ever felt pressured to make the “responsible” money choice, even when it wasn’t working for you? Share your story with Rachel
💝 Support the Podcast
Help keep the Money Healing Club podcast going. If this show has helped you feel less alone or more grounded with money, please consider contributing: https://www.moneyhealingclub.com/podcast
🎧 Your next listen
💸 The Six-Figure Lie (and What It’s Costing You) with Becky Mollenkamp: Robin’s experience with expensive business coaching and the pressure to achieve financial success connects directly to this conversation about unrealistic income expectations and the emotional cost of entrepreneurship.
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Robin Finney, Wandering Aunt (00:00)
And so even that, it was like something where it was like I knew I needed to do something. I needed to like I was at the point where I couldn't even use my cards anymore. And it got to the point where it was like, I either eat or continue being the good girl and paying my minimum payments.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (00:22)
to the Money Healing Club Podcast. I'm your host, Rachel Duncan. I'm a certified financial therapist and art therapist, and you've come to the softest place to land in personal finance. just a note, this podcast is educational in nature. It does not replace mental health care or legal or financial advice. Quick heads up: this episode includes a personal story from my guest about a financial crisis.
Including debt, bankruptcy, and experiencing panic attacks. It's nothing graphic, but if that's heavy territory for you, please take care of yourself, you can catch a different episode or go have a cup of tea.
This month, we are exploring legal topics that carry real emotional weight and stigma. The last episode was about estate planning with Lauren Klein. Today, we're talking about bankruptcy with Robin Finney. Next up, we're gonna be talking about divorce, so stay tuned. What you'll hear today is Robin Finney's personal experience. She's not a lawyer, and I just want to note that bankruptcy looks really different depending on where you live.
what kind of debts you have, what you own, all sorts of considerations. So if if you're considering bankruptcy, please talk with a bankruptcy attorney licensed in your state. Many offer a free first consultation and they will let you know if you're a good candidate for bankruptcy or not. Okay, take a breath. Notice what's been coming up for you as I've been saying that word, bankruptcy, a lot. Maybe you picture someone who failed.
Someone who's quote broke, I hate that term. Someone who is irresponsible. Maybe you feel a flinch of shame. Whether or not it's part of your own story. So my guest today calls herself a bankrupt dreamer. Those words don't usually sit by side by side, but Robin is claiming both. So I first got to know Robin and her coaching work through some professional organizations we're both a part of. And
I felt some yearning, some jealousy. Look, I've got the mortgage, the kids, the cars, the cats, the husband, but from the outside, we only see the highlight reel. Robin actually wants to share with you the messy middle of living the nomad life. So what happens when someone who's always paid things on time is the quote good girl who balanced her checkbook as a teenager, but she can't make the minimums anymore. How did bankruptcy become the choice that made the most sense for her?
She wants to tell you all about it and dispel the shame. Robin is the founder of Wandering Aunt, where she helps people build self-trust and live more intentionally through coaching, retreats, and soulo travel experiences that soul spelled S-O-U-L-O. She left her corporate job a while ago, sold most of her belongings, and has spent the past eight years as a full-time nomad, visiting more than 50 countries across six continents. And when she's stateside,
Her home base is her sister's place in Dallas, where she really is the wandering aunt, and that's where I caught her in our episode today.
Robin's Substack, Confessions of a Bankrupt Dreamer, is where this episode's title comes from. She writes about the honest, messy reality of building a rich life beyond traditional definitions of wealth, where she puts it, being cash poor and rich in experiences. You can find her everywhere by searching Wandering Aunt, that's A-U-N-T.
Robin and I talk today about how she affords to travel as a self-described bougie nomad. We talk about why her bankruptcy didn't come from travel or shopping. It came from a high-ticket coaching training right before the pandemic. We also get into the pro bono lawyer who helped her through chapter seven, which included listing her suitcase as one of her only assets and the money decisions she'd make differently today.
Because going bankrupt didn't mean Robin had to stop dreaming. It actually meant a fresh start, exactly how it's designed. So let's talk about the things we don't usually say when we talk about money and bankruptcy with Robin Finney.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (04:34)
Welcome to the Money Healing Club Podcast, Robin Finney. This is a long time coming. I'm so glad you're finally here.
Robin Finney, Wandering Aunt (04:39)
It is.
Yay. I'm so excited to be here, Rachel.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (04:43)
Robin and I, you know, know each other from a professional net networking group, but we've also hung out on my back porch. Like I think we definitely, it's so fun to be friends and colleagues and network buddies at the same time. So I'm so glad you're here. Okay, Robin, first question is something that you're really known for, is how the hell do you afford to travel as much as you do?
Robin Finney, Wandering Aunt (05:05)
So I it's so funny because in my early days, so I'm a nomad, I've been a nomad for the last eight day eight days, eight years. And I used to get offended in the beginning when people would ask me this. Cause I would be like, What? you're asking me? And it's a common question, but for me, I would get like, Well, I'm not asking you how you afford your mortgage. I'm not asking you how you afford your rent or your car payment. So
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (05:31)
even though we're also all wondering that about people. We just don't say it.
Robin Finney, Wandering Aunt (05:33)
Right, right.
but then I realized like, okay, to a lot of people travel is a luxury and it's not something that it's like, yes, those of us like for Americans in general, we have that privilege of being able to get a passport and go places. And I realize that it's it's something that is can be like, yeah, this is
Far fetched for me with a lot of like or bucket list. And so for one, for me it's multi-layered. So I it's like in my early days, I sold most of my belongings. I sold my car once I was about two months in. I just got clear, like, ooh, I actually want to do this and I need to sustain it. And I'd quit my corporate job at that point. And so I and then I I cashed in my 401k and I had enough to travel for about a year and a half.
And then after that I was like, okay, now what? and so that at that point I started taking on some like contract jobs and things on the side. But I've also made a lot of sacrifices. Like when I so I've designed my life to be this freedom flexible lifestyle. So I'm in Dallas, Texas right now. Just got back from New Zealand two days ago. I home base at my sister's when I'm here. So oftentimes I'll say, I'm so lucky because
plane tickets or my rent. And I don't have like that normal expense that a lot of people have. I house sit a lot. So yes, I do have to pay for lodging occasionally. Like I was in Wellington for the last week of my stay and after house sitting and I did. I had to pay for lodging there. And even with that, I stayed in a hostel but I'm a bougie. I call myself a bougie nomad. And so I
I paid a little extra for a private room. I was I did a shared bathroom, but I was in a private room because I like to have my space. And so and then I stay, I have a lot of people offer offer their couches for me and offer for me to house sit. And so cause lodging is honestly one of the biggest expenses. and then plane tickets, sometimes it's I have gotten many times. I utilize like PayPal Pay and Four or
affirm and for me it works really well because it's automatically coming out of my checking account. So while I might be like charging it, it's puts me on a plan to where I still have it set up to where the money is coming out.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (08:15)
And it sounds like your biggest costs are in the transition, right? The plane ticket, the getting to the place. And
then when you're there, your costs really shift. And so then you can pay off that cost is what I'm hearing.
Robin Finney, Wandering Aunt (08:26)
Yeah. And
I and so and I work it in like if I were paying rent, it would be like okay, equivalent to what a plane ticket. And I'm also very savvy with flights and everything. So I'm not I break up my flights a lot of times. I buy for eight years I've traveled on one way tickets for the most part. And that actually cuts down the cost a lot because it's like when I go somewhere, it's like, okay, I'm there.
Getting there is one thing. And I'm like, okay, I got that first part taken care of. And then I'll look for a sale and I'll get my next one. Or I'll trust my intuition in that nudge of when when it's time to book. And so I've gotten really I've been really savvy and fortunate with that. but with that, there's also sacrifices. So a lot of people are like, How can you afford? And I'm like, Well, when I'm back in the States, I don't really eat out. I cook meals wherever I am.
like I love I love coffee shops and I've started like making like mushroom coffee at home and and making my own like latte experience so that when I am traveling I can splurge more. and so I kind of make those sacrifices when I'm stateside because it is a lot more pricey in the US than it is in so many other places.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (09:46)
So you can be less bougie in the States than you can abroad, it sounds like that makes sense. You're kind
Robin Finney, Wandering Aunt (09:50)
Yeah. Yeah.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (09:52)
of like it's a dynamic shift in your lifestyle, it sounds like, depending where you are.
And I know that like Dallas for you is kind of is a bit of a home base, right? You often return
Robin Finney, Wandering Aunt (09:59)
Yeah, yeah.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (10:01)
there between sort of your longer trips away. I mean, I think also, you know, yeah, it sounds like you've arranged your life and that you swapped out a lot of the costs and then
I am I guessing you're kind of utilizing more like online ways to make money, like flexible kind of gig stuff then? Is that right? So how are you making the income part work?
Robin Finney, Wandering Aunt (10:18)
Yeah. Yeah.
right. So and I've been I've gone through my my income's fluctuated a lot over the years. I definitely have not reached like what I was making in corporate. and I like right now, transparently I'm making about a thousand to eleven hundred dollars a month, which can't really live on that in the US.
so that's where it's like I am fortunate that I have people house me and and I also have this it's like even when I'm staying with people, it's like I will oftentimes it's like I'll dog sit for people and then for me I'm like, that's an exchange. Cause I'm they're giving me a place to stay and in return I'm doing something for them that they would otherwise be paying other people to do. And so that that's an outlet.
And then I do contract work. I I support like our Forge community, which where we met. It's in the a creative, it's a space for creative entrepreneurs. I have I have another coach that I support in her communities and also do some social content. And then I have my own business Soulo Experiences, S O U L O. I like to make that distinction. And have fluctuate. I fluctuate with when I'm offering like
throughout the years and when clients come. So I I rely more on those contract gigs. And then I'll pick up occasionally a it's like I'll pick up different projects here and there through word of mouth and referrals.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (11:51)
Right.
And it sounds like and your lifestyle is sort of adjusted to be very adjustable and very flexible in that way. I'm curious, what would you say are some of the I don't know, like misunderstood maybe like this challenges with your lifestyle? Cause I think someone like me, I'm noticing in myself, some yearning and some jealousy, you know, because it's like I got the mortgage and I got the kids and I got the two cars, and I kind of have this more, you know, I think on the outside.
you know, mainstream sort of stuff. Like, I'd love to just sell everything and go travel the world. But I'm guessing it's not as glamorous as that all the time. And I'm just wondering, like, what do you wish people knew about living nomadic?
Robin Finney, Wandering Aunt (12:30)
Yeah, I mean, I get a lot of comments. Like so many people are like, I absolutely love what you're doing. I live vicariously through you and I don't know how you do it. I could never do that. And so there's a lot of people that it's like they see the cause it's like, my goodness, you're just constantly on the go. That stresses me out. And there are times, yeah, where I'm like, it's like I was when I was house sitting, I was grounded for five weeks at the same place and that was really nice. I was like, I can like actually like
unpack and because I'll live I live out of a suitcase most of the time. And then even when I'm staying here, I'm here this time I'm here for two weeks. So I I have like a closet and things that I can like put things away, but I'll I'll be traveling in a couple weeks. So I'm keeping keeping my suitcases out in that regard.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (13:21)
Where where's your next what's your next sojourn?
Robin Finney, Wandering Aunt (13:23)
so I'm going to Nashville
for a month, I'll be dog setting for a friend and then I have a friend getting married. So that's kind of how part of it too is I've designed this life to where I can not always, but a lot of the times be where I want when I want, so that I can be there for these life events of my friends and then be there to support others when they're traveling and I can stay at their places and watch their their pets.
And and so there's a lot of that that people are like, wow, living out of the suitcase. I don't know how you do that. Or I don't know how you move, you know, move so frequently. I even get that from other nomads that are like, How do you do that? Slow travel is the way to go. And I'm like, Yes, there are seasons for that. I I lived in Brazil for two years and had a home like had a home base in Brazil. I was paying rent. It was really great. And I would still come and go. And so for me, I've just designed this.
But then there's the behind the scenes, like where I am in Dallas, I share a room with my thirteen year old niece. And it's like I'm the wandering aunt for a reason. And so there's and then sometimes I'm like sleeping on somebody's couch. Or it's like even when I was staying in the hostel, I I had my own room, but I was sharing a bathroom and sharing a community kitchen.
And so and there were times when I'd walk in the kitchen and I'd be like, I really don't want to be cooking in this kitchen, but I wanna save money on not eating out every meal. And so there's like different things like that that it's like I make I make compromises that I think a lot of people may they're like, I don't the comfort, the discomfort of it.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (15:08)
The discomfort of it. Right. There's like the
flexibility and the adventure and the discomfort. And it's sort of all in there together, it sounds like for you. And
I think it's really neat you you mentioning like, you know, while it's Soulo S-O-U-L-O you know, it it's also like it sounds like you're very connected to the people. W you know, you people in your life, like, I'm gonna be there for you and your marriage or your baby or your life event. And I know you come to Colorado to see a good friend, and then you can stop by my porch, like
It's like while you travel a lot, I almost wonder if you're more connected to the people in your life through doing this.
Robin Finney, Wandering Aunt (15:41)
feel like I am because that's a big part for many people is they're like, how do you find community? And I plug in wherever I go. And so I even I was in the city for a week and I was going to the Pilates studio there. And I got to know a couple people and I even got a house sitting invitation from a woman and she was like, my goodness, you came all the way to New Zealand. She was like, Well if you ever in this area and and so I find that
the energy that we put out in the world is the is what we attract. And I have this view when I'm traveling that I'm going to meet the best people and best experiences. And that's shown up for me every time. And I make a point to create connections where I go. And it's like if I know somebody from an online world, it's like even in New Zealand, I connected with a friend who
She was a nomad for many, many years. She settled down about 10 years ago and has a son now and is married. And I rented a car for the day and drove out to where she lives. And for me, it's like creating these connections, coming to your place. It's like to me, that's really meaningful. And it's like I I don't take that lightly when somebody offers for me to come over and share a cup of tea or coffee or a glass of wine or anything. It's just like
To me it's just like, wow, I love that people are making space for me, just as I'm doing the same. And so it just creates this reciprocal experience.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (17:19)
it's very cool. You know, and I appreciate you earlier also giving some financial reality, right? Like having kind of gig work. There's gonna be slow seasons and bigger seasons and that you've adjusted your expenses, it sounds like to kind of get through a lean month because you're not having like the rent and the mortgage and things like that. So it's yeah, I appreciate your honesty with that.
Which leads me to my next question, which is sort of this new project that you're getting going on, which is what really excited me also about bringing you on here. which is your new substack called Confessions of a Bankrupt Dreamer. Could you tell us a little bit about this new project and a little bit of your experience with bankruptcy?
Robin Finney, Wandering Aunt (18:01)
Yeah, so I went through bankruptcy two years ago and it honestly it took me about two years to reach that point of being okay with it because there's for at least for me, there was such a stigma that showed up about it because I was always somebody who was so responsible with paying my bills on time and I didn't even get my first credit card, I think, until fifteen years ago, maybe.
It was or even l it was like 2013 or something. And 'cause I kinda grew up around debt and I would see that and like, I don't want that. And and so I was just very responsible and aware and like it's I still remember as a teenager, it's like I would balance my checkbook and like write. It's like I'd write everything and I was just very on top of it all.
And save, I would save my money, save for a down payment on a car, save to study abroad, save to buy a bed and different things like that. And so when I started Nomad Life, I I didn't really have a lot of savings. I, as I mentioned, I sold my car and I cashed in my 401k, which was not a light decision. It was something that I really sat with. but for me, it it felt aligned. and
I think one of the misconceptions and one of the reasons I'm wanting to talk more about this is my bankruptcy wasn't from my lifestyle, my travel. yeah.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (19:30)
Really important note. Yeah.
Robin Finney, Wandering Aunt (19:32)
And I cause I think sometimes it's like people can look. And so that's how I get the question of like, how do you afford to travel? And that's why I say it's like my tagline for my Substack is I'm a cash poor, rich and experienced nomad and dreamer. Because as I mentioned, I'm like, even right now, it's like I'm not making
a ton at the moment and I can stretch. It's like I've learned how to stretch my my dollar and make it go far. But then there's also the reality of like, okay, I still have bills to pay. I still have I'm getting older. I'm in my 40s. So it's like medical insurance and everything shoots up at that age. But I had invested, it's like right around in 2019, I had invested in a high end coaching program.
And this was right at the point when I needed to start making money. And
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (20:23)
Mm.
Robin Finney, Wandering Aunt (20:24)
so in hindsight looking back, I'm like, it wasn't really the wisest choice, but it was one of those things where it's like you're hearing you hear the the people who are selling like tell their stories and how they made their investments back right away. So my brain's like, okay, well, if they did it, sure, I can do this too. And it was $2600 a month.
And I was making like zero dollars at the time. And so I
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (20:51)
Right.
Robin Finney, Wandering Aunt (20:53)
but I I I really took a leap of faith thinking like, okay, I'll use this to launch at the time it was Wandering Aunt Travels and Solo Experiences was kind of born through that. And and I learned a lot about myself, but I also didn't know at the time all the like trauma and healing and everything that would be stirred up from
Starting my own business and putting myself out there because I'd always had people paying me. I'd always worked for other people. And so there was just a lot of layers and confronting. And then the pandemic hit. And so it was something where it's like, okay, I was using credit cards to pay for this program. And I'll never forget. It's like, I don't regret, like, that's also part of it is I actually don't regret doing the program or investing in.
retreats and other certifications and things I went for. And at the same time, it's like I can still remember staring at my computer, I had a loan offer from one of my credit cards and it was a seven it was like seven percent loan, which I don't even know if that's these days.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (22:03)
Pretty low. That's pretty low.
Robin Finney, Wandering Aunt (22:05)
And and I remember looking at it and was like, okay, I could get this loan and it would like take care of
paying for these investments and then it would lower the monthly payments. So instead of like 2600 a month, it's like it would be something manageable. but my brain, it was in that moment, and this is where it's to me, it's like, and I I'm sure you've dealt with this with your clients, my brain convinced my brain was like, but you've always paid your credit cards. You've always paid your bill on time. So why would this be any different?
But I had never gotten a loan before. So my nervous
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (22:42)
Yeah.
Robin Finney, Wandering Aunt (22:43)
system j was just like really conflicted and and like terrified of taking a large amount of money out to pay back.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (22:51)
It was kind of like the reverse. Instead I'm I'm I'm
trying to pay off these credit cards as fast as I can, whereas getting an upfront lump of cash, like it didn't compute, it sounds like.
Robin Finney, Wandering Aunt (22:59)
Yeah. No. And it
and it just like it's like looking back, I'm like, my goodness, that would have eased my nervous system in so many ways. And I just I didn't have that I didn't have that context. And and so it's like that was one of the things that I'm like, I wonder, I wonder to this day if it would have changed something, but
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (23:23)
Gotcha. So you find yourself, you know, no or limited income. You are nomadic. You're you've committed to this program. You're putting that on on credit cards. and and how long did that go along? Like I'm curious when sort of the th considering bankruptcy came up for you. just wondering like what what
that process was like.
Robin Finney, Wandering Aunt (23:43)
Yeah, it wasn't until two years later, because I at that point it was like I was I was struggling to just pay my minimums. It's like basically all the money I was earning was going just to pay minimum payments. So it's like I wasn't I was pretty much just paying interest. I wasn't even like making a dent. And somebody is like a friend of mine had said something like, Well, what if you just, you know, stop paying your credit cards?
And I was like, whoa, no, no, no. No, that that's not that's not
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (24:13)
Does not compute.
Robin Finney, Wandering Aunt (24:16)
something. And it terrified me, the thought of doing that. And then I had looked into bankruptcy as an option and and then I had talked to people who had gone through it, and then I'd talk to people who had done like debt consolidation. And so I I was starting to kind of collect information. And I'll never forget, I spoke to this woman.
I have a tendency when I have like a poor experience with somebody, I just like block their name from my memory. So I have no idea what this woman's name was, but somebody had connected me to this woman and she was like, she's like, she I don't know if she was an accountant or what, but she was like, she supports with things like this. And I was sharing my story and it was like really vulnerable for me at the time. And she had said to me,
my goodness, you have made all these choices, and you're gonna end up bankrupt and living on your sister's couch. And you're it's like basically painting this like picture, like the worst case scenario for like at the time. And I walked away from this call thinking like it was something where I was gonna get like support and advice, and she was just like projecting all these fears onto me.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (25:34)
Very bias also
like, hey, I choose to live on my sister's couch because this is my nomad lifestyle. Like just that bias of someone coming through.
Robin Finney, Wandering Aunt (25:38)
Right. Yeah. Yes.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (25:42)
And I think that's so important to note that like things like debt and bankruptcy, there's a lot of, you know, moral judgment, a lot of stigma, like you said, I think that's really out there. And, you know, be choosy about who you get, you know, advice from because
Robin Finney, Wandering Aunt (25:59)
Yeah.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (25:59)
or feedback because if
If financial professionals have not done their own work, it could be very, very biased how they how
they, you know, help somebody.
Robin Finney, Wandering Aunt (26:08)
was her like her perspective was bankruptcy was like the absolute worst thing that you could ever do. And and so I walked away from that call like kind of like, my goodness, what in what in the world just happened? And luckily I had friends that were like, she was totally projecting her fears onto you. And and it still was kind of in the back of my mind. And so I I had these like
stigmas and fears around it, like thinking like, my goodness. And one of the biggest things for me is I had so many like I was a travel hacker at the time. And I had, which those for those who aren't familiar with travel hacking, it's like you can a lot of credit cards, there's a lot of rewards programs. And it's like you spend a certain amount and then you'll you'll get like a lump sum of points that you can then use to book flights and or hotel stays. And so I was able to
It's like the first year, year and a half of my travels before any of this, it's like I I didn't pay for plane tickets. I had points. I was like traveling on points and still I was like paying off my cards and everything at that point.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (27:18)
Right. So and it's interesting with credit cards because there is this sort of double thing where it's like you get the points, you get the perks, and then there's debt and interest. And I
Robin Finney, Wandering Aunt (27:26)
Yeah.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (27:27)
think it's really important to separate those two things. I just kinda like want to do a pull out because I think sometimes, you know, these travel cards can be alluring. It's like, I'll basically
Robin Finney, Wandering Aunt (27:35)
Yes.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (27:35)
get free flights. And it's like, well, yes, however, if you compare that to like the interest you're paying, right? That's
Robin Finney, Wandering Aunt (27:41)
Right.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (27:42)
th that it's not really free, you know, and and
You know, what I the general guidance I like to give is like, hey, those points are great. Those programs are great. If like that that's something you're really using, you're really using your card. And if you're paying it off in full, then those points are perks. But it does get tricky when you kind of get latched onto it feeling like free stuff. And there but there's real balance getting added and interest
Robin Finney, Wandering Aunt (28:03)
Yeah.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (28:04)
getting paid, right? But it's it's a combined thing. And by design, I think these c companies are designing it exactly, you know, to to kind of entrap that situation.
Robin Finney, Wandering Aunt (28:16)
Yes. And so and that's something where it's like when I started out in my early days, I was paying everything off and and it was working for me. And then when it wasn't, then it got to the point where it was like, okay, I, you know, had put had racked up all this debt from all these investments and but my brain again was like, you're gonna lose all these statuses and you're never gonna get them back.
And so even that, it was like something where it was like I knew I needed to do something. I needed to like I was at the point where I couldn't even use my cards anymore. And it got to the point where it was like, I either eat or continue being the good girl and paying my minimum payments.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (29:01)
Wow. Yeah. And that's often I do think, you know, what I've heard out there and when I support some folks who have like gone through bankruptcy or are th considering it, it's a i you know, if you can't make minimums, that that really is a deciding point of like this is gonna be, you know, some something needs to give. And I I'm wondering for you, you know, I think a lot of people are faced with bankruptcy or debt consolidation or another kind of like debt program.
and I just like also want to note we're just talking about Robin's experience here. Like I'm not in a place to advise and everyone's got it w is so context dependent about what which of these programs work for you. But I wonder if speaking from your experience, how did you decide in that fork in the road which way to go with your debt? How how did you decide to go with bankruptcy?
Robin Finney, Wandering Aunt (29:45)
So I had talked to several entrepreneurs who were in similar situations where they were like, Yeah, I invested a lot in my business and it hasn't returned. And and so it was similar in that regard where they were making a choice. And and then I had reached out to just some friends and refer received a referral and I actually spoke with a lawyer who
supports business owners. And she was so great. Like she took the time to talk with me and listen to me and advise. Like really, like she was just like, you know, I think in your situation, I think it would make a difference for you to go down this path. And she wasn't, she was in a different state. So she wasn't able to represent
She ref like connected me with some lawyers in Dallas and she was just so helpful. And I just felt like I walked away from that call like, wow, she's not judging me. She's not judging my situation. She's actually offering me a lifeline and support and showing me like, hey, there is life after this.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (31:00)
And I want to
share like that is odd that is exactly the design of bankruptcy. And I'll like sidebar this a little bit and I'll find references on that. But like the history, especially of the United States and bankruptcy, is actually very intertwined. And, you know, a lot of the, you know, quote, founding fathers, a lot of the reason that they wanted to, you know, emancipate from England was to, was to make this a place where people could take risks and not go to debtor's prison for it.
And so like the history of the United States and bankruptcy has a lot to do with the industry and innovation that is inherent in this country. It's like this very interesting thing where, especially for things like business debt, that's exactly what bankruptcy is designed for is to allow you to take those risks and keep going and keep innovating. So it's just like when I read this, like that's such a different perspective of like why bankruptcy is there and exactly why it seemed to be like the right tool for you at the time.
And let's
Robin Finney, Wandering Aunt (31:58)
Yeah.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (31:59)
have a judge on your side going through this, or you
don't have a judge on your side or any legal stuff if you go through loan consolidation. And that's its own program and sometimes that's the right choice. but what I've heard, and I'll post a link to a podcast that really helped change my mind with this, is you know, if you're looking at loan consolidation, if someone is having trouble meeting their minimums, consider bankruptcy. It doesn't necessarily mean it's the right thing for you. You can always get a free call with a lawyer.
but like we need to step away from the stigma because it's a great tool exactly
for like it can be for your situation.
Robin Finney, Wandering Aunt (32:34)
Yeah, and and that's what I've had so many people reach out to me after the fact because one of the reasons I'm like talking about it and coming out with confessions of the bankrupt dreamer is we have so many people, especially in the business world who in the coaching world who they're they're s sharing their like success stories, their six figure months, their or six figure years, they're all of that
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (32:58)
It's all over the place, yeah.
Robin Finney, Wandering Aunt (32:59)
all over the place. And
we're not hearing it's like, yeah, they'll talk about they'll refer to when they were in the trenches. But it's not like it doesn't for me, at least it's like it doesn't resonate anymore. And so I'm like, you know what? I'm in the messy middle and I want to be open and honest with people. Like, hey, just because you do go through this thing, it's not like my life is just like, okay, I did the I'm clear. It's like, no,
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (33:23)
Right.
Robin Finney, Wandering Aunt (33:23)
it's like I'm still building income again and I'm still
rebuilding my life in in a sense and I have found freedom in it, but and I also want people to know that there's so many resources out there and it looks it looks different for everyone. It looks like I went chapter seven, which that was that allowed me to like basically clean like literally was a clean slate. And it wasn't a for me, it was like some people I think they enter it and it's like okay, they go through the steps and it takes a couple months and then they're good.
It was a year long process for me.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (34:00)
I've heard all ends of this. It just so depends on what
Robin Finney, Wandering Aunt (34:03)
Yeah.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (34:03)
what's going on, I'm guessing. Like the types of
debt you carry, the types of assets you have. Yeah, I've heard I've heard all all ranges. So it's hard to know exactly how long the process is gonna
take. Okay, so yours yours took quite a while.
Robin Finney, Wandering Aunt (34:15)
yeah, and I and so and I had at the time it's like I had connected with a lawyer in Dallas and I don't know this to be true. Maybe you know part of this. but like in the state of Texas, it's like bankruptcy lawyers are the same. It's like the same cost and it's kind of like deemed, I think. And again, this may have changed, so I would definitely tell people to do their their checks, but it ends up being about two thousand dollars to hire a bankruptcy lawyer and they that
covers the paperwork and the fees and everything. And so even at the time when I was talking to a lawyer, I was like, I don't have that. And
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (34:48)
How do I even do that?
Robin Finney, Wandering Aunt (34:50)
so I got a hit, at the end of this, the end of 2023, I got a hit to just search. Like, I wonder if there's any like volunteer lawyers or something for bono. And
I I Googled it and Dallas actually has a volunteer attorney program and bankruptcy is
included in that. And so I took a chance, I applied, and they accepted. And so I was able to move forward with a pro bono lawyer and it was really great and it had some definitely had some growing pains because he was more like a business like a business lawyer. He hadn't done like personal bankruptcy before. Yeah. Yeah.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (35:29)
A little bit of a you get what you pay for. Sounds like it.
Robin Finney, Wandering Aunt (35:32)
And there were like
Some paperwork he had forgotten to submit and so at one point the judge was like, I'm dismissing your case and I was and so it was just like a
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (35:41)
So
is that one of the reasons it went on so long?
Robin Finney, Wandering Aunt (35:43)
Yes, yes. Yeah.
So normally it's like it would be the lawyers there like helping you through all of that. And it also took me a while to it's like the pain paperwork itself is very daunting. It took me a while to fill that out. And then we were able to appeal and get everything back on track. but then my case was considered like the to the trustee.
But not even the it wasn't even the trustee, it was the trustee's assistant. It was an also another experience where she was just like projecting all this stuff onto me. And she so they consider my case red flag because I had no assets. And so in their eyes, because it's like they actually want you to have assets because not only does it pay back some of the creditors, it also pays them. And when it's a no asset case.
Or at least in this at least in Texas or in my situation, it they get like a flat rate paid. yeah. The trustees themselves. So
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (36:46)
interesting. The lawyers themselves or the trustees make last good to know.
Robin Finney, Wandering Aunt (36:51)
in that situation then it was like, so she went off on me because I my assets is like what I was listing. And I said something about living out of a suitcase 'cause she was like questioning me about like, you don't have a car, you don't have a house. And I was like, No, I'm a nomad, I live out of the suitcase.
She's like, I don't see a suitcase listed on here. And so she literally was like breaking it down like every asset that I owned. And I was like, I'm sorry. I was like, you were right. I did not list my suitcase. So
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (37:21)
Right. When it comes down to assets, it is everything you own. Yeah.
Robin Finney, Wandering Aunt (37:25)
I literally went back and refilled, like, did that portion of the paperwork. And then they were, it was clear like, this girl really isn't hiding anything from us. She really has.
I was like, I've condensed my life down to four crates in my garage. Clothes or something that's not like included in it unless you have like really I think like expensive things,
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (37:48)
Were you like
and during the bankruptcy process you were s we continued to live nomadically and
do your work
Robin Finney, Wandering Aunt (37:54)
Yeah. I was still
living in Brazil at the time. I did come back to the US. I was here for four months. because I also, since I was red flag, I was like, I don't want it to look like to them like, here I am just living this, you know, great life over here. And and so I did stay stateside during that time.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (38:15)
Gotcha.
Robin Finney, Wandering Aunt (38:16)
And so that that was that was definitely working through.
a lot in that way. And my lawyer was he was very aware. They were aware of my situation. So it's not like I was hiding any of that. but it it definitely it definitely was a process. And I'll never forget I once I went through the meeting of the creditors, which is where they have an opportunity where you have a it's your final call with the trustee and it's an opportunity for any creditors who object to your case to come forward and appeal.
it was nerve wracking because I was like,
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (38:52)
Wow, what's really, what's that like?
Robin Finney, Wandering Aunt (38:56)
my goodness. And I I already had like one credit card that was wanting to sue me and for non payment. And my lawyer was like, Don't worry about it. You're he was like, Because you're filing, it's like they can't they can't take any action in that regard. He said it's just a threat. but I kind of thought like if they're willing to do this over thirteen thousand dollars on a credit card, then it's like
they're gonna show up. And so I kind of showed up to this call expecting and nobody showed up. And so the trustee went through and he was like, you know, we've we've been through a lot with your case. And he said, I can see that you are an honest person and you are really trying and you do wanna start over. You're not trying to take advantage of the system. And so he cleared it and then after you have that meeting, then there's you wait sixty days.
And it it's like any creditors at that point can still come forward during that. And then once the sixty days is up, then the judge like signs it off and then you're clear.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (39:57)
So clear. There's no the credit card companies cannot call you anymore. Is that right? All those cards are shut, closed, no more.
Robin Finney, Wandering Aunt (40:01)
Yeah.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (40:04)
I'm guessing also your credit score takes a big hit, right? That's part of the clean slate of it. Yeah.
Robin Finney, Wandering Aunt (40:08)
Yeah.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (40:12)
I mean that's that's so interesting. Like, okay, and then it's done. And then and
then what's next? What is what has rebuilding been like for you since then?
Robin Finney, Wandering Aunt (40:23)
So it was I mean, I had I had stopped using credit cards for two and a half years and was learning to just live like, okay, this is and that's how I kind of started like the like PayPal Pay Four, like they allow out because I was even thinking like I don't know that I'm gonna get any any support with this. And I was also wanting to be mindful because I was like, I don't want to fall back into the crutch of
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (40:49)
It's interesting 'cause you're still doing the nomad life but without being
able to do travel hacking. Really different.
Robin Finney, Wandering Aunt (40:53)
Right. and I learned
that. I was like, you know what? It's okay. I can still live a great experience without
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (41:00)
Totally.
Robin Finney, Wandering Aunt (41:01)
staying in my bougie hotels that I didn't pay for.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (41:04)
Right, right.
okay. That's really interesting because I feel like, you
know, a lot of folks could have like shift like done a you know, a one hundred eighty in their lifestyle was like, No, I can still do this, it's just gonna it's gonna look different because I'm actually literally having to do cash for everything and not on the travel hack, but like still you're still hacking in your own way.
Robin Finney, Wandering Aunt (41:22)
Right. And I and I've
there's still other ways you can go around it and still get points and things. And so I was, you know, s slowly rebuilding and then I've been finding ways where I'm like, okay, I'm only making eleven hundred dollars a month. It's like my plane ticket to New Zealand. I was like, I couldn't pay all of that up front. And so I did do like a pay. And so it's it is, it's like, but I'm on auto pay and there's something for my
system that it's like, that works. That really works for me because it's like I know the money's gonna be coming out. And so I'm like, okay, I gotta make sure the money's in my checking account.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (41:59)
Yeah, and it's interesting. The four pay stuff is an interesting aspect of borrowing because it's not a hard pull on your credit. I'm
actually, and I will do some research. I'm not sure if that's reported to credit bureaus. I'm sure it would be if you didn't pay. but I think if you pay
Robin Finney, Wandering Aunt (42:12)
right. That's what I'm thinking
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (42:14)
the four pay, it sounds like it's it's kind of this funny in-between place. And I also think folks get into a lot of trouble with the four pay, right? If you put everything
on four pay. So it sound sounds like though you're using it as a tool.
Like specifically for the high ticket stuff, look for the high tickets, literally.
Robin Finney, Wandering Aunt (42:30)
Right.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (42:30)
and and spreading and spreading that out because then after the transition to your new location, your costs drop vastly. So like this different way. I just I always think of like, how can debt be used as a tool? And like
that's one way you're using the debt available to you right now as a
Robin Finney, Wandering Aunt (42:46)
Right. And I and I have like a whole spreadsheet that I I go through it weekly so that I'm making sure that I'm on track with everything. And so in a way it's been very it's been supportive for me in kind of creating like a budget again and creating a system that works for me. Yeah. Yeah.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (43:05)
Right, and back to your roots. Like you said, like you kinda yeah,
Robin Finney, Wandering Aunt (43:08)
And it's not something that I would say, yeah, it may not work for everyone. And I also want to be transparent about it, that it's like
There's always a way to quote, like follow your live your dream and take steps towards it. And some people it's like that that doesn't work for them and that's okay. They they see debt as like a no way, like I'm not ever gonna borrow money from anyone. And I'm like, that that is okay. And I think it's okay if you choose like I'm gonna utilize this system that we have in place.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (43:42)
Yeah, so what would you say, like to back up a little bit and reflect on these last few years, what would you say that bank your ex bankruptcy experience has given you? What do you carry from?
Robin Finney, Wandering Aunt (43:51)
It honestly it gave me it gave me freedom for one. And then it also it gave me just more confidence in showing that I can do hard things and even if it's scary, because I literally thought I went through all the worst case scenarios and my worst case scenario was I'm going to it's like they're gonna I like I built up this whole fear
that they were gonna take my passport, that they that I would be stuck in the US forever and I'd have to go back to a corporate job and like my idea of not like not the lifestyle that I want to live and everything I work towards. But it was like it got to the point where it was so overwhelming where I was like, this is gonna happen. But I also needed to live out that worst case scenario. And I was having a lot of panic attacks back then and
For the small it was like the smallest thing would set it off
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (44:49)
Yeah. You're
just like living on on that edge. It's hard when
like you feel like your your agency is handed over to someone else, right? That's a very
Robin Finney, Wandering Aunt (44:57)
Yeah.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (44:58)
helpless feeling.
Robin Finney, Wandering Aunt (44:59)
It is. And so now it's like my nervous system has gone through so much that it kind of knows the worst case scenario now where I'm like, even if I am getting down to the wire on my bank account, I'm like, it'll be okay. It's like maybe things will be tight this week, this month, but it will it will come back. It circulates.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (45:22)
I trust myself.
Robin Finney, Wandering Aunt (45:23)
I trust myself.
Yeah. And I think I didn't trust myself before in that way. I lived in so much
fear.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (45:29)
and even thinking back, it sounds like, you you've got kind of that sliding doors moment of like that low cost loan, hmm, you know, like playing that out and
like noticing, you know, your relationship with income and debt and and and
expenses going forward, it sounds like there's been a real reset there where you might look at like at that happening differently.
Robin Finney, Wandering Aunt (45:46)
Yeah, and there's
one of the so with my confessions of a bankrupt dreamer, I'm structuring it where I'm having like each post will be confession from. And so one of the ones I'm writing right now is confession from the fifteen thousand dollar grant I got. And during the pandemic, the small business association, it's like they were offering support to businesses and I had a travel based business and clients were canceling on me when the pandemic hit. And so
I didn't know. I was like, I have no idea if if I'll get anything from this, but I applied and then I'll never forget. I like woke up and I looked in my checking account and I had $15,000 in there. And I was just
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (46:26)
No way.
Robin Finney, Wandering Aunt (46:28)
like stunned. And I was like, my goodness. And I had written out like all these scenarios of all the things I could do with the money. But the good girl in me was like, we gotta be responsible.
So I set aside like a couple hundred dollars to buy a few new out like items, like clothing items, and then I put all the rest towards my credit card.
And to this day I'm like looking back, if I were to redo that, I wouldn't. I would have invested in in my business.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (46:54)
yeah. So tough though, with this like
debt has to be this number one thing to pay off. And and I
Robin Finney, Wandering Aunt (47:00)
Yeah.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (47:01)
do want to say, like, you know, credit card debt is significant and the interest rates are quite high. And like, if you know, we're gonna prioritize anything, it's probably paying those back. but you know, I wanna back up right and look at your the whole situation, you know, of like sometimes though, like what could I do towards increasing my income? And if that
Robin Finney, Wandering Aunt (47:20)
Right.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (47:21)
Right. Because paying off debt is one thing, but like those dollars are gone. If those dollars
could be put towards a true investment, which would be growing more dollars, then like okay, we're talking about a different way of paying that debt back by bringing in more income. But when you're in the moment, you're like, Yeah, I wanna be a good kid,
Robin Finney, Wandering Aunt (47:36)
Yeah.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (47:36)
you know, the debt is bad. I'm gonna put it all towards that. Yeah. I well, I look forward to reading that article.
Robin Finney, Wandering Aunt (47:41)
Yeah, because it's and so
it's just the after those are all the things. It's like I've gained so much wisdom from the experience and I've seen it's like I know I can live on very little and somebody said the term well kept nomad and I was like, I want that. I wanna be a well kept nomad. I don't wanna have to like constantly be thinking about like can I afford this thing or how am I gonna pay for this?
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (48:07)
Mm-hmm.
Robin Finney, Wandering Aunt (48:07)
Or where am I gonna stay? And can I afford it if I need to like if I'm not staying with somebody? And so that's been like I know the income gap is a big aspect of that. And it's like I've lived through all of this experience and now I know it's like, okay, and I am working I am working towards that. And it's like I do have some months where it's like I I'm making more than eleven hundred a month and I'm in a season right now where it is things are tighter.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (48:34)
I'm so glad you're sharing it now because I think you're right. A lot of people are like, I went through this rock bottom, but like, and now it's far in the rearview mirror and and I love that you're like, I'm gonna not that you're rock bottom, you like messy middle, right? You've been the
Robin Finney, Wandering Aunt (48:45)
Yeah.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (48:46)
in like sharing it now as as you're rebuilding. I I think those stories are really important to share. I appreciate you doing that. Well, tell us where can folks find find this great stuff that you're doing.
Robin Finney, Wandering Aunt (48:56)
Yeah, so all of my my website, my social handles, my substack is all Wandering Aunt So you can search search for all of that and find me.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (49:06)
Great. Yeah. Go find, go find Robin and the wandering aunt All right. Robin, I'd love to ask you what I ask all my guests is if you were to take a breath, wake up the visual side of your brain, and I want to ask you, what is your money as a creature? How do you imagine your money as a creature, real or imagined? Could be anything. What's your first intuitive hit?
Robin Finney, Wandering Aunt (49:30)
First intuitive hit is a cat.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (49:32)
Yeah. Tell us more.
Robin Finney, Wandering Aunt (49:33)
I kinda think cats cats
are a little sly and it's like they have these moments where they'll come out and they're like, Ooh, I'm the you know, I'm Prissy and the show and the star and all of this and then they retreat. It's like they hide
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (49:49)
Mm-hmm.
Robin Finney, Wandering Aunt (49:50)
a lot and and so I find that they they kinda have this dance between like the Leo. It's like being out there on the stage but then being kind of in their their space, like
their hermit space. and so I kind of think about that with money sometimes where it's like I have these moments where I'm like, Woo, yay, I'm out here. And then
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (50:11)
Yeah.
Robin Finney, Wandering Aunt (50:11)
I have other times where I'm like, I gotta be a little more reserved and quiet and maybe nap for 17 hours. You know, not literally, but like, it's like, we gotta take a pause on this for a bit.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (50:25)
Right. So yeah, money's really dynamic for you. I mean it is for everyone,
but like this feeling of it of feeling dynamic. And and as you have this sort of like sense of the catness of your money, I'm wondering if it has any wisdom for you. Like what does this money cat wanna tell you right now?
Robin Finney, Wandering Aunt (50:43)
So one of the things I really love about cats, like I always had cats growing up. They're very I mean, all animals are intuitive, but there's something about cats where they they are so resilient and know how to take care of themselves. They're resourceful and I'm extremely resourceful. And I know that's a big part of how I've been able to live this lifestyle for eight years, is I can take some I can take very little and
make a lot out of it and and so I I often think like I'm like, wow, yeah, I'm the person who can show up at Pilates and get an invitation to house it for someone.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (51:23)
Right. And that nature of the many faces of a cat, while it can be like, where is the cat? That's actually part of its adaptability, is that like it can have all these faces, it sounds like just like you. I love that in your money cat.
Robin Finney, Wandering Aunt (51:33)
Yeah.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (51:38)
Robin, this is such an important story to share. I'm just, I really appreciate your honesty about a topic that is so loaded. It has really unnecessary stigma. Let's like, let's start undoing it. I'm very pro bankruptcy. I gotta say, like, let's spread the word. So I'm so glad
that we could share this. I want everyone to follow along with your work as you continue to unfold what this process has been like for you and all the wisdom that you've gained that you can share. So thank you so much for being here.
Robin Finney, Wandering Aunt (52:05)
Thank you. Thank you so much.
Rachel Duncan (52:11)
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