S2 E46: 💸 The Six-Figure Lie (and What It’s Costing You) with Becky Mollenkamp
EPISODE SUMMARY
Have you ever told yourself "if I just hit that number, everything will feel okay" and then hit it, only to find the goalpost moved again?
In this episode of the Money Healing Club podcast, Rachel welcomes Becky Mollenkamp — feminist business coach, speaker, and author of Liberate Your Business — to unpack the "six-figure lie": capitalism's story that there's a magic number that will finally make us feel like enough. Together they reverse-engineer what it actually means to define enough for yourself, covering the hedonic treadmill, enoughness as a practice, underearning, and collective action.
"It always moves. It's never gonna be enough — and that's why we know it's a lie." — Becky Mollenkamp
Key Takeaways:
The six-figure (and now seven-figure) target is arbitrary, designed to keep you churning rather than arriving
Enoughness isn't settling. The word literally means it's plenty and capitalism warped that
Calculating your actual enough number line by line often reveals it's lower than you thought
Underearning is just as much a product of the system as overconsuming; both sides deserve healing
The three steps toward liberation: awareness, define your enough, lean into discomfort
Step four (Rachel's addition): find the people doing it too. You don't have to carry this alone
Surplus beyond enough is a choice point, a chance to think collectively rather than just individually
Enough applies to more than money: time, rest, connection, community
About Becky Mollenkamp: Becky is a feminist business coach, writer, and speaker who helps service-based entrepreneurs build human-first businesses that honor collective flourishing over profit-at-all-costs growth. She's the author of the newly released Liberate Your Business and founder of the Feminist Podcasters Collective, the community that brought Becky and Rachel together. Her work is written for not just business owners.
⏰ EPISODE BREAKDOWN
00:00 | The Six-Figure Lie What is it, where did it come from, and why does the goalpost keep moving from six figures to seven to eight?
07:30 | Redefining Enoughness Why "enough" has become a dirty word, and how getting honest about your actual enough number can quietly disrupt the whole system.
19:00 | Liberation Without a 3-Step Plan Awareness, defining your enough, and leaning into discomfort — the messy but real roadmap Becky and Rachel build together in real time.
36:00 | The Gap Is Where Wealth Lives What happens when your income exceeds your enough point — and why having a plan for that surplus changes everything.
💌 Connect with Becky Mollenkamp
📖 Get the book: beckymollenkamp.com/book
🌐 Website: beckymollenkamp.com
🎙️ Feminist Podcasters Collective: feministpods.com
📚 Resources Mentioned
• The Feminist Podcasters Collective: A directory of diverse, independent podcast voices doing meaningful work
• Liberate Your Business by Becky Mollenkamp: Available at bookshop.org, Barnes & Noble, Amazon, or request it at your local library
☎️ Join the Conversation!
What's your "enough number" and have you ever actually sat down to calculate it? I'd love to hear what comes up for you. Click the big orange button on our site right from your phone or browser and leave me a voice message: https://www.moneyhealingclub.com/podcast
🎧 Your next listen:
Ready to actually raise your rates? Rachel and money witch Sarah Mac dig into the self-worth blocks and cultural conditioning keeping you from charging what you deserve. https://www.moneyhealingclub.com/podcast/s2e31
💝 Support the Podcast
Help keep the Money Healing Club podcast going! If this show has helped you feel less alone or more grounded with money, please consider contributing: https://www.moneyhealingclub.com/podcast
🌟 Want more help?
🤑 FreeEmail Course: Curb impulse spending with compassion and mindfulness at moneyhealingclub.com/challenge
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💸 The Six-Figure Lie (and What It’s Costing You) with Becky Mollenkamp
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[00:00:00]
Rachel Duncan: Welcome back to the Money Healing Club podcast. I'm your host Rachel Duncan, financial therapist, art therapist, and founder of the Money Healing Club. It's a place for financial therapy experiences, from membership to group classes, individual work and courses, all to become better friends with your money from the inside out.
Reminder that this podcast is for education and entertainment purposes only. It does not replace mental health care or financial advice.
okay. Have you thought to yourself, if only I had more money? It's a really common silent wish that many of us are thinking, and it's a fair one to want more money. But what does more mean to you? Like what exact number? Where does that amount come from, and will you ever be satisfied? In today's episode, I take a step back and reverse engineer what it means to have enough with the one and only Becky Mollenkamp[00:01:00]
Becky is a feminist business coach, writer, and speaker who helps service-based entrepreneurs build human first businesses that honor collective flourishing over profit at all costs growth.
She is also the author of Liberate Your Business, which just hit the shelves. It really challenges a lot of the narratives we've been taught about success, productivity, and worth. Even though the book is written for business owners. I think a lot of the principles apply pretty universally if that's not enough.
Becky also is the founder and community hub of the Feminist Podcasters Collective, which you know, this podcast is a part of, and that's how we know each other.
So when we think about liberation, there's no neat four step plan to liberate your business or your relationship with money. But in this conversation, Becky and I kind of find ourselves building a roadmap on the fly anyway, I wonder what you think about it. We talk a lot about what she calls the quote six figure lie.[00:02:00]
That feeling of, oh, if I just get there, if I just cross that number, then everything will feel okay. And why that goalpost keeps moving. And even the idea of it is kind of problematic. We explore enoughness the systems we're all swimming in and what it actually looks to start defining your relationship with money on your own terms and collectively at the same time.
So let's talk about what we don't usually say when we talk about liberation and money with Becky Mollenkamp.
Rachel Duncan: Welcome to the Money Healing Club podcast, Becky Mollenkamp. I'm so glad you're here.
Becky Mollenkamp: I'm excited to be here. Thanks for having me, Rachel.
Rachel Duncan: we are gonna focus today's conversation while on everything you do, which you have poured into your amazing book called Liberate Your Business. And I actually wanna zoom into the middle of the book, chapter six, where you really start talking about money and you talk about the quote six figure [00:03:00] lie.
The six figure lie, which is really turning a narrative on its head. What, tell us what is the six figure lie, Becky?
Becky Mollenkamp: It is the lie that capitalism teaches us that there is some magical number that's gonna solve all of our problems. That's gonna make everything all better. And if we just strive and work hard and keep going until we hit that magical number, then once we get there, like poof, all the problems go away and we will have succeeded.
We have, we will have done it, and we will be happy.
Rachel Duncan: bootstrapping the bootstrap lie. Yes. I think it's also, what's interesting about six figures is such an anchor point, like I feel like it's been six figures since the nineties. Like it's not even, it's an arbitrary number that just happens to be round in US dollars and doesn't even like reflect Cost of living changes. Like it is, it's, it is this magical thing that, that feels like this threshold that also is just really arbitrary.
Becky Mollenkamp: Well, [00:04:00] exactly. It is arbitrary, although interesting, I think we're starting to see more and more rhetoric of people moving it to the seven figure lie, which is even more pressure and more scary. Right? But it is completely arbitrary, and that's kind of the point because it isn't based on any reality of any one person's lived experience, their needs, their desires, what they actually want and need for their life.
It is just a number that feels big enough. To maybe be real, but also like big enough that for a lot of us, we'll never hit it. So we're always gonna be striving, which is why I think more and more we're starting to see the seven figure thing show up because it has to be big enough that most of us don't reach it, so that we're always hamsters in the wheel.
Churning, churning,
Rachel Duncan: You talk about like the, the hedonic tread treadmill. Right. We're on it and it's always like, oh, if I just get to there, if I just get to there, like that's gonna be all different. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp: that's what we think a lot of us discover. We get to the six figure lie and then we realize, well sh that didn't do it. [00:05:00] Darn it. What? I thought that was gonna be the thing. So then the goalpost moves to the seven figure, which is why I think we're seeing more of that because people have hit the six figure and realized.
That didn't solve all my I'm not magically, suddenly happy. So I guess maybe really the number should have been seven figures. I even see some people talking about eight figures. So I think if anything that should tell us that's, that's why we know it's a lie because it, it always moves. It's never gonna be enough.
Rachel Duncan: and you know what I'd say, I think the other side that I see with my work as a financial therapist, not always working with business owners sometimes, but more just. I dunno. Anybody is also like, well, I just have to spend less. I just have spending less is the answer. Spending less is the answer, which is kind of the other side of the coin.
And it's like, okay, from both of these, the making more and spending less, it's we're taking a systemic issue and making it personal and really we need to back up and be like, what is your relationship to the money?
Becky Mollenkamp: Yes. And what is money's relationship to you? Meaning [00:06:00] the system of money. What is your it's relationship with how you show up in the world, your identity? Because so much of that is also outside of our control. There are things that are in our control. Those things are important to look at. Sure. Spending is one of many levers that we do have some agency over, but I think the part that gets missed so often is the parts that we don't have a lot of direct agency over affecting and money is a systemic issue.
It's a very big one of the biggest systemic issues and. Every person's relationship with that is different based on identity. The starting line that you have with money, the kind of relationship you're gonna probably be able to have with money is gonna be different based on a whole bunch of factors that were set up before you were born.
Rachel Duncan: Yeah, you, you mentioned a couple times in the book, like, uh, first off, I just love you have a chapter with a topic. Do like a wonderful essay about it, and then have like, here's the challenge, or here's like some. Actual tools. It's not just you talking, which is by the way, just a thing I really love about the book.
And you [00:07:00] talk about enoughness, there's a whole kind of section of enoughness. Do you wanna kind of break down like how you approach like guiding and also, I don't think this is just for business owners. I think this is good for everybody. Um, could you guide us through like the, the stages of enoughness and how we look at that?
Becky Mollenkamp: Yeah, I mean my focus is business owners only because I, that's the lane I'm in, but most of what's in the book, although written to business owners, so much of it goes to all of us. 'cause it's talking about all sorts of things that we all care about. Imposter syndrome and you know, all the issues. But with money.
The key to getting off that hedonic treadmill. The hedonic treadmill is just the psychological concept that there's never gonna be enough. The, the goalpost continues to move and it's set up that way by capitalism. 'cause capitalism needs us to be good consumers, constant consumers, because that's what keeps the rich getting richer, right?
It's what keeps money getting put into the system is that we are constantly consuming and taking from the system and that. It [00:08:00] never gets so satisfies that we buy more. Getting off of that treadmill requires some really complicated and challenging work for us around what's enough. Capitalism teaches us enough that that word becomes almost an ugly word.
It starts to feel like settling or something bad, like I'm just accepting less
Rachel Duncan: Good enough
Becky Mollenkamp: when. Enough in and of itself means enough,
Rachel Duncan: Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp: right? Like the very word means it's plenty. It is enough. But we have, it's been so warped by capitalism that we think of enough as being less not, not enough, right? No, I can't just be okay with enough.
I need more, more, more. So some of it is just starting to like sit with that discomfort of, of what is your relationship with the idea of enough of enoughness? What does it mean to you? What have you been taught about enough?
Rachel Duncan: Like I think about, you know, our feelings of fullness, like with food. Right. And, and so often I, I don't work with food directly, but it comes up a lot, you [00:09:00] know, in session and, and you know, you're used to consume, literally consuming a certain amount. And, and sometimes when we work with our relationship with food, it's actually keying into that feeling of enough because we've been taught not to pay attention to it.
Right? What are our cues for feeling full and sated and yeah, I almost feel like maybe we could replace enough with like. I don't know. Satisfaction or, or satiation or something. Yeah. There's a lot of different ways to describe that.
Becky Mollenkamp: Yeah. And, but you know, even, even still, until you examine that relationship and begin to really fundamentally shift your relationship with the concept, it won't matter what word you substitute. Because capitalism, the waters that we're swimming in, the air that we constantly breathe is continually reinforcing the idea that enough or satiation or satisfaction, none of those things are good enough, right?
There's always something better just over the horizon. You've just gotta get to that thing, and that's gonna be the thing. We have to really shift our relationship with that concept as a whole, and that's really, really [00:10:00] hard work. Right? So it's really sitting down, I think, and I'll be interested to hear, because you work with people at a more granular level, probably around money than I do, but one of the things that I will often tell my business coaching clients is I want you to sit down with a spreadsheet or whatever. Form you like to work in and actually calculate what is your dream life, your so-called dream life, this thing that you think is in the horizon.
What is it really gonna I want you to sit down and line item every part of that life. If you tell me the only way you're really gonna be happy in life is to have a personal chef, I don't think most of us need that. But if that's what it, then what does that cost? What is the actual dollar amount? I want you to get down to the penny.
What is it actually gonna cost you because. We are never challenged to do that because if we actually start to look what the actual number is, we have a stopping point. Capitalism doesn't want us to have a stopping so most of us have never figured out what is our actual stopping point. That's sure enough.
What I find is once we start to do that work, that enough number actually often downshifts [00:11:00] a lot. It is because we start to. That process of just even starting to identify what does it actually cost? What is it? How do I define what satisfaction satiation enough, what? How do I define that in my life?
And then what are the actual numbers for that? That process already is starting to click you out of sort of the haze that we are all in. That is just telling us always more so then once we started to click out of that, we often find that we realize, you know what? I don't even know why I thought I needed a personal chef.
Like. Who do I like? Why I, I actually enjoy cooking or whatever the things are for you. And you actually start to, usually your enough number goes down. For most people, it goes down from what they thought it needed to be, not the other way. Because once you start to move out of that system, You realize that's not gonna be the thing that lights me up. That's not gonna be the thing that's gonna make me feel full and satiated. Right. Because it's the same like you said with eating. And you know, I have had my issues around that too, where it's just like you're trying to fill a [00:12:00] hole with something that will was never gonna fill the hole.
Right, and money's the same thing. And starting to question what actually fills that hole for me? What is it that actually makes me feel satiated in my life? And that is not to say, I think because people often think with enoughness, again, they're thinking of it as I'm settling. It's less than, it's not an it's, you know, not a full beautiful, amazing life.
It is not to say that you can't make money or you shouldn't make money, that you shouldn't have a really full and rewarding, and enriching and amazing life, that you shouldn't desire to have things. That's not at all what I'm saying. Right? Because I think life is beautiful and full when we have things and there things can also make life easier, you know?
And more enjoyable money can make life easier and more enjoyable. I'm not here to tell you it doesn't buy happiness. It can to a degree, right? But it's the, it's the piece around. Actually questioning how much of this. Is what I, as Becky or [00:13:00] whoever you are, me as an individual, how much of this is my actual desire versus just the air I've been breathing and what I've been told it's supposed to look like.
I don't actually want Kim Kardashian's life. I wouldn't want that. No slide on Kim Kardashian. It's just not, it wouldn't be the thing that would fulfill me. So why am I trying to make Kim Kardashian money? What's the point of it? Right? Like I think we can just generally investigate that for ourselves.
Rachel Duncan: I love this idea of like, like zooming out and like, where am I learning this? Where did I get these ideas from? It's, it's the system, like I'm gonna balance my individual desires also with like, what, what is systemic in this and lifestyle? Oh man, we're so cute by lifestyle, you know, I think of like even I'm a child of the eighties and you know, only the very wealthy had house cleaners.
In my growing up, and now it's commonplace for quite a few more people. There, it's been this lifestyle creep. And so, you know, and, and that's, I think lifestyle creep is also like a [00:14:00] normal thing. It's a phenomenon that happens to a lot of people. Um, and yet to really, really look at, well, where did I learn that that needs to be there?
Or another, another kind of like paradigm shift I like to think about is like, what would I keep doing no matter how much money I had, I don't think I'll ever stop thrifting. Like, because it's, I love it. It's such a more fun shopping, like, oh, it's so much more me. And so that that can be kind of a fun thing like, oh, I really do enjoy cooking, or I really do enjoy just like casual lunches with friends.
Like those things are super important to you now, will continue to be important and to like center your vision around those values that you are already living. 'cause those things will probably stick around.
Becky Mollenkamp: Yeah, and there's nothing wrong with enjoying beautiful things. That is, for some people, beauty is a really core value, and one way they may express that is through curating really beautiful things in their life, and that is okay. Right. This is, it's not about judging what others have or don't have or what they desire or don't [00:15:00] desire.
It's getting down to, like you said, that root understanding of the desire where is it coming from and is it even yours there? For a long time, I was pursuing things that were not my desire. I was building this life that looked beautiful. I had a gorgeous home. I had a shiny red BMW in the garage. I was traveling all the time, like I lived a life that looked really great and I was unhappy.
And that was a really hard place to be because I had to figure out why everyone else tells me I should be so happy. 'cause I'm, I'm doing great. I've got disposable income, I have all the nice things. I'm buying designer handbags and you know, all this stuff. But I began to realize designer handbags for me were never gonna fill the hole.
It wasn't something I actually valued or cared about. Sometimes do miss the BMW. It's a very fine piece of But on the whole, the things were not like, for me, that wasn't it. Right? For some people it's travel and they don't care what kind of home they're in, what kind of car they drive. Other people may not care about traveling, but they really care about personal expression in the [00:16:00] form of really beautiful, fancy clothing.
That's okay too, right? So that's exactly it. It is not about. Questioning someone's desires. It's about understanding where those desires are actually theirs. And I just wanted to quickly say on, just because I thought it, um, on the home cleaning piece Yes. And lifestyle creep is definitely real. And I just wanna throw in the note that the number of working women now versus when we were kids is very different.
Rachel Duncan: different Exactly.
Becky Mollenkamp: And I love that we have house cleaners and for people who can afford that. I mean, there's obvious privilege in that. And I think in a lot of what I talk about in the book is acknowledging the places of privilege and all of that. Um, but I also think. Good. Like we as women should not, so it's also for me to just say like, I'm not saying you have to cook.
If you don't like cooking, don't cook. If you don't like cleaning, don't clean. I hate cleaning. Like that's okay, right? So it's okay to want those Again, it comes back to is it because it's solving a need for you, a desire for you, or because someone else, somewhere along the way said, this is what you're supposed to want.
In the same way that like you shouldn't have to cook [00:17:00] just because society says you're supposed to cook, right? No, that's crap. We don't need to do that
Rachel Duncan: either. I really appreciate that. Yeah, and I think, I think there's a shift. I think that's just what I mean, like, oh, these shifting things about like what is normal, what's a normal lifestyle? And all it usually takes is some international travel for you to realize, oh, you know, my sense of quote, normal is so specific and not normal for the world.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp: Absolutely. Well, and a big change too since the eighties is the GA wage gaps between CEOs and workers. So there may be more people with cleaners, but there's a whole lot more people who have far less than they did in eighties. And then there's a small group, people who have a lot more than they did in the eighties.
Thank you. Reaganomics. So there, there are major shifts. And capitalism at that same time. While those rich are getting richer, they're trying to make the rest of us feel like we are supposed to be keeping up with the Joneses where we can't. Right. And, and we're putting ourselves into credit card debt to do it.
We are, you know, we're overextending [00:18:00] ourselves to try to keep up with the lifestyle that, for many of us, if we really get honest with ourselves, isn't what we want anyway. And that's the part I wanna try to check us out.
Rachel Duncan: out of. the liberation part. And maybe we could like, dig into that word a little bit like how can we liberate from, from these constraints or from these things that end up, you know, hurting us, hurting society, and, you know. I know that that process of liberation is often an act of rebellion, right? Yeah. So could you talk to us like, yeah. How do we liberate, like from, like you said, liberate our business, liberate from money, like all of this stuff.
Becky Mollenkamp: Yeah. Here's the hard part Nobody likes to hear and why Writing a book from this lens is challenging because there's no three step formula
Rachel Duncan: Everyone loves a
Becky Mollenkamp: I know, I know. Everyone loves like a really tidy, do these three steps and now is you're liberated right now. Now capitalism no longer affects you.
Here's the truth. It is literally the air we breathe. White supremacist, capitalist patriarchy is the air that we all breathe, especially in Western cultures, and most especially here in the [00:19:00] us. So you can do tons of work and then the very next day you go out and breathe in the air and it's all coming back in.
So it's a constant process, which sucks because people really just wanna be like a 1, 2, 3, and I'm done. And now I've checked that box and I can move on. But that's actually capitalism speaking, like that's conditioning us to show up that way. And that's. Not how it works, but I would say if you're looking for steps, number one, far and away is awareness.
We can't change what we can't see. So if you still aren't seeing this, the air that you're breathing, if you are the fish who doesn't know he is in water yet, you're not gonna be able to change anything until you can see the water. Right. And that's an important part of the process. The most important part, I think is the awareness.
And that is like there, that's why there's a lot of journaling prompts in the book to try and help you start to dig into some of these questions because again, that piece of, is this even mine? Most of us we're never encouraged to sit down and ask that question. We are not encouraged to ask, who told me I should want more?
Who benefits when I want more? You know it. [00:20:00] Do I actually want more? What is enough for me? These aren't questions that we are encouraged ask, right? In fact, we're very much encouraged. To ask the opposite of those questions, and
so that awareness is important.
Rachel Duncan: and I'm kind of balancing this with, you know, what's so common is, is the underearning. There is another side to this coin of, of underearning and being committed to underearning, which is also, especially for folks who are, you know, engendered female and things like that of like, huh.
You know, even listening to you speak, it's like I can see this play out in some ways, but in other ways I've been almost afraid to pursue more money and it's sort of this other side of the coin.
Becky Mollenkamp: Yeah. I love that you're bringing that up because enough for people with privilege, generally the question is not more right? It's how do I right size, or not even right size, but just how do I manage these expectations in a way that they become my expectations and not what I've been given?
But there are many, for many of us with marginalized identities, and certainly people have far more marginalized identities than I do. The [00:21:00] challenge is, can I believe that I deserve enough which is yeah.
to right enough because. Enough is not, again, I'm not saying it's settling, it's less, it's not enough.
You know, it's, it's, it's less, I am saying, enough is enough what actually helps to finance the life. That is what I want my life to look like. And for many people with far less privilege, that does mean challenging themselves to dream bigger, to think I can have more, and then to do the things that are involved in that, which can look like.
Pricing things vary differently, right? Because when we woefully underprice, because we don't think that we are allowed to ask for more, that people will pay us more, that we deserve more, then we are stuck in this place of not enoughness, but not enoughness is just as problematic as too muchness. Right.
Both of those are the issue with capitalism because what is that? That's the binary. Binary that capitalism tells us has to exist, [00:22:00] haves and have nots. Our goal is to check out of the haves and have nots system altogether to say, no, we should all have. To do that, we all have to have enough. It's not about having too much and too little, right?
It's not about hoarding wealth and it's not because when we're on the side of privilege and we're hoarding, the only way we can do that is by others having to downsize what their lives look like. And I think we have to ask ourselves, is that the life I wanna be a part of contributing to? The answer for me is no.
And so that means that I have to really get honest with myself. Then what do I, what is enough for my family have a lovely, wonderful life? That's it. Just a lovely, wonderful life and a lovely, wonderful life. Does not have to look like owning a private island. just, it doesn't. Right? Because when that, because the only way you can own a private island is at the cost of stealing land, stealing labor, right?
You're gonna be taking from others. So I think it's really important. You're right, the people on the other side of that, those with more marginalized identities, the [00:23:00] challenge is it's still a challenge. And the challenge is to. Challenge yourself to say, what is enough for me? And am I able to like foster belief that I can make that happen?
And also we have to acknowledge there are real systemic barriers. Again, going back to your relationship with money, our relationship with money is vastly different based on what the system, I hate to say, allows, but allows at the moment, right? The way the system is structured, there are many people for whom their relationship with money can't look the way they want it to, yet.
That's a real problem, which is why those with privilege need to really examine their relationship with
Rachel Duncan: because then it's, it gets into this, oh, manifest abundance and, and you think big and, and shoot for your dreams, which actually is still just individualism talking again and
Becky Mollenkamp: Which is why we have to get to the part of the politics of money, which is we have to vote in a way that actually reflects our values. And this is what we see. This is the problem with the system we're in, because wealth begin. When you begin to concentrate and [00:24:00] hoard wealth, it begins to protect itself, right?
So you can show up saying you care about people, but then we see the number of people who vote to harm others. Because in order protect themselves, so it's about not only just voting that way, it's also about showing up about writing to your politicians. But also it looks like for people with privilege, privilege, it looks like thinking really long and hard about when you do have surplus, when you do have abundance, when you do have.
More than you need. When you've gone beyond enough. What are you doing with that? What it often looks like is we're stacking it away saying, I want my people, my family, my lineage to benefit. And that. Is that aligned with your values or does it look like funding mutual aid? Does it look like saying, I'm gonna give this money to organizations that are doing work with the populations that are having all of these systems stacked against them so they can't get to the place of having enough? Let alone, excess.
Rachel Duncan: Or, and also look what you're paying your team. Are you paying your team enough to, [00:25:00] to save for retirement? You know, um, as I grow my business, that's been a big thing for me is, is paying people not a living wage, but a thriving one. And, um, you know, and everybody. Benefits from that, so,
Becky Mollenkamp: Absolutely. It's very important to think about and for us to be demanding that of corporations, we can be doing that on an individual level. And again, individual stuff is really important. And it is a piece of the puzzle where we have some agency, but the way we have agency in the parts where we feel like we have less agency is through demanding.
Right. And so for those who are not self-employed, it is like thinking about unionizing. It is about. Talking about collective action, you know, show if there's a, if there's gonna be a general strike, participating in that strike. Sometimes we have to put some skin in the game. We have to have some risk to be able to make the kinds of change that really need to happen for everyone to have access to enough.
Rachel Duncan: think that step into maybe discomfort or taking a stand, I do think it could be part of your, [00:26:00] if we were to have three easy steps or three clear steps is, is to lean into some discomfort and find the people who are doing this, you know, um, to, to challenge anything. We have to kind of cultivate our inner rebel a bit and, and question things step out of our comfort zone a little bit.
You know, do that stretch. That is how any important change has happened.
Becky Mollenkamp: Yeah, so we'll say three steps are first awareness first is just doing the work to start to question the systems that you exist in and where they are affecting you, benefiting you, harming you, where you're participating, where you have power to maybe step out of that. And then I would say the next piece is then defining for yourself what is enough.
Being really honest and doing a real good gut check on that. What does enough look like in your life? And then I love that piece about the third step being some discomfort because for those with privilege, there's gonna be discomfort in saying, I'm gonna use my more. I'm gonna use the excess in ways that don't just benefit me there.
That's [00:27:00] uncomfortable. It's really uncomfortable inside of a system that has trained you not to think that way. And so we have to honor that in ourselves that. That is gonna be really hard and really uncomfortable. But also, is that how I wanna show up? And then for those who have less privilege, who are have more marginalized identities, it's gonna be really uncomfortable to do things like charging more money, asking for a raise, saying no to somebody who's undervaluing you.
All of these things, right? Those are uncomfortable. And then for all of us, it's really uncomfortable to demand better from those who have more. Right. And that is also, and those who have more power to make So all there is so much discomfort in this and that's such an important part of it.
Rachel Duncan: Step four, find the people who are doing it too. So you're not doing it alone. I think we get some, I think so much exhaustion that, oh, it's, again, it's this individualism, oh, I've not do it myself. Or I have to like reinvent the wheel when like, there are likely people, organizations who have noticed this problem too, like join the wave and, and you know, we don't have to burden all of these things on [00:28:00] our own when we can share, share with others and.
And, um, you know, like knowing you and like being part of the feminist podcasters collective, like there are these ways to feel, oh, I'm part of things, and that really, oh man, when we can share that, like mental load, emotional load, nervous system load. Oh, it's so much easier,
Becky Mollenkamp: Well, it's also part of shifting our thinking to enoughness because, and it's exactly, again, going back to is it an, can I have enough and then have a whole bunch more and say, well, my enough enough's met and now I have all this extra. Sure. But there's a cost to that and it's a collective cost that leaves others without enough.
And we have to, Americans in particular, and you may have and, and probably North Americans as a whole. And most Western cultures. But I think America is particularly guilty of this because of this concept of the American dream and bootstrapping and all of that. We are deeply ingrained into an individualistic way of showing up in life, right?
We are. It is all about every man for themselves. Everybody figure it out. No asking for help. You gotta figure this out. You gotta do it [00:29:00] on your own. The self-made millionaire. All of these, like, there's so much mythology around individualism in our culture and. That teaches us to not think collectively.
There are cultures by the way, that think collectively. I mean, often Americans will look at Europe and be like, I want, I want universal healthcare. Yes. Then they find out how much the taxes are and they say, oh no, that's ridiculous. There's a cost to collective care. There's also such a deep and rich and beautiful reward, which is not just the individual reward, it's the collective reward.
It's knowing that you are helping your neighbor, you are helping the stranger. You are helping all
Rachel Duncan: and, and it's not all altruism. I know that when the schools are better, I know that when houselessness is addressed, it does improve my life. Like it's not all altruistic. It's not noll sum that like. My extra payment there benefits all. Actually, I just had a conversation with my husband. Well, in the fall there was a big ballot measure here in Denver.
A big bond, huge [00:30:00] bond for, um, replacing a lot of the libraries and parks, right? Just like old stuff from the seventies that needs to get redone. And it's a lot, right? It is. It's kind of like this unfathomable amount of money. And he's like, well, if it's not in my neighborhood, what does it matter? Oh, hang on.
Right. This benefits our entire city, which is like the big sort of beast that we live in. And, um, the ripple effect, I don't know how you wanna call it, it's a, is very real. When there are resources for the people around us, it actually will come back to us as, you know, I don't know. What do you wanna say?
Reduce crime, increased education levels, right? All of this stuff. It's a subtle thing.
Becky Mollenkamp: It is down to the, I was just having this conversation with somebody else too, just, it goes down to, like, you hear people complain about the service that they receive. Somebody was talking to me the other day about how the cashier couldn't count change for them or something. And those same people will often be the people who turn around and say, well, I'm not gonna vote for a bond for the schools.
I don't even have kids in the schools. And it's like. You may not have kids in schools, but then you're gonna complain about the person who doesn't know how to count the change because the school system is [00:31:00] failing. Then the because you don't wanna help fund it. Yes. It all matters. It all matters. And I think sometimes in the world we live in, it can be very overwhelming.
Like I have those moments of just, oh, it's all so big and so overwhelming, and we just have to remember to zoom down to the local level. What can you do locally? In the case of like, and this is online, but it's still my local community, the podcast collective, it's not thousands of people, but there's 50 lives, 50 people who are all supporting each other and helping each other.
And that's one small micro that I can have some influence in my community. I go to the PTO meetings and does that change the world? No, but it does, right? When we think about the butterfly wings, like these ripple effects, like you said, they, they go out. So when it starts to feel overwhelming, look. Smaller get myopic, what can I do in my community and and that's part of this like wealth piece too.
It's like when I have enough, and by enough, by the way, we're talking money, but I also wanna be clear, I'm also talking about time because that's a really important resource as [00:32:00] well. Do I have enough time? Because we often get so fixated on enough money that we, it comes at the cost of enough time for rest, for family, for things that bring us joy, for making a difference in our community.
So when we look at enough, we need to look at enough of all the things that we want, not just our money. The money can help fund those, but sometimes it actually can take away from those. So finding that balance. And so if I have enough money and I have a surplus or a surplus of time, I mean. I can use that to go out and make a difference in the community in ways that then help to support that enoughness.
So sometimes I may not have enough. I may not have an abundance of money, but I might have abundance of time and how am I paying that forward? So I just, I think this idea of enough, it's like in all parts of our life, you mentioned food. I would mention time. I think we can look at any part our life and just really ask ourselves, do I have enough?
I mean, because also when we think about. Climate change and what we're putting into the trash. Do I have enough stuff look around, like do I need that third handbag or [00:33:00] whatever the thing is, I'll probably end up throwing away or putting to goodwill. So I just, I mean, I just wanna make enough feel like a beautiful gift and not a like straight that's like, oh, it's, it's making me feel smaller.
Rachel Duncan: A real stabilizing feeling. And, and I love this aspect of reverse engineering. You know, like, like in the club, I have this spreadsheet where, you know, plug in your numbers and it's actually like, then this is maybe the income you should shoot for. So it is, it's this more reverse engineer and it is, it's a specific number when you account for debt payoff, your bills, your, your got to haves, your love to haves, whatever.
I hate the whole like dichotomy of needs versus wants. I don't talk about that, but like, when we build this up and saving for retirement, like this is more the number, you know, at your next employment review or whatever to look and, and it'd be a lot more specific than like, yeah. Oh, it has to be six figures or whatever, you know.
Um, and yeah, it could be more. And then now we have a specific thing to aim for and that like, kind of reverse engineering is, is very helpful.
Becky Mollenkamp: Well in the part where you're talking about people who maybe be, [00:34:00] are on that other side of, of not enough, right? Having a specific number and understanding the why of that number. And I just think that's so important. Like, 'cause when you just sick, I'm gonna make, I need to make six figures. That could be a hundred thousand or 999,000, which is a very big field, right?
But even if you just choose a hundred thousand, I've gotta make a hundred thousand dollars this year. But if you don't know why. What that's actually doing in your life. It becomes much easier when someone starts debate you on pricing or your boss starts to push back on a raise for you to give in because it's like, oh, well sure that sounds good too.
I'll take that, like 70,000. Sure, okay, that sounds really nice. It's a 5% raise, whatever. But when you know why, like, no, this is what's gonna actually allow me to retire at the age I wanted to, or gonna make sure that my kids get to go to school or whatever the things are, it becomes far more motivating and more difficult for you to say yes when you really wanna say no.
Right? You have a reason to show up and charge a certain amount of money or demand a certain raise. You know, that's so important and so missing for most people because they're [00:35:00] just pulling stuff out of the dark. And when you do that, it does, it lacks that gravitas that you need to be able to really.
Stand up for yourself. And we as mar people with marginalized identities, most especially need that they need to know. Like, no, this is why. So when you start pushing back on me and say, no, you shouldn't be making less, and I can say, no I shouldn't, and I know why I shouldn't. Yeah, exactly.
Rachel Duncan: there's this beautiful number, and actually maybe this is like this point of enoughness. So like to really, you know, accelerate wealth building, let's say, you know, like I said, like lifestyle creep, lifestyle inflation is very normal and natural. But like when we know what that enough is, what I hope for everyone is, then you make more than that enough point.
That gap, that gap is powerful when we can uncouple our income from our expenses. And there's a, there is a number where that will happen, but we gotta be aware of that because it will just track, track, track, track, track. You know, expenses will just track your income if we don't know that point. So that's [00:36:00] the other, I think, really interesting tipping point for folks is like, that's my enoughness any amount over that, that now also I have a plan for right now we're talking, you know, philanthropic or whatever it is, right?
And that is where like more last lasting wealth can exist is in that gap. Um. Of course, like your enoughness might be there, right? This is all, all subjective, but I think that's also really important because I want everyone to like, I just want everyone, I do want everyone to make more money, but also know what to do with that when there's that surplus or abundance.
Becky Mollenkamp: I want everyone except for Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk to more money. Well, you know, all the billionaires,
Rachel Duncan: I mean everyone, I mean everyone I know.
Becky Mollenkamp: Yeah, that, that gap you're talking about, that the, the, the surplus. Because once we hit our enough, you may have years where you do have big surplus. There may be years where it's a smaller surplus.
That surplus. I love the idea of having a plan for it and that, uh. I don't wanna shame surplus. It is about what are you thinking about with that surplus? And that's where I challenge people to think collectively. Too often the people who are thinking collectively are [00:37:00] people who don't even have a surplus.
So they're, they're giving away from before they've even hit there enough. And now they don't actually, they never hit there enough because they're giving away before they even get to there Enough. It's like the oxygen mass on the airplane. That's so trite, but it's there for a reason, right? We have to take care of ourselves first.
I say we're individualistic, but there is survival has to be in place. So you have to hit your like, what is my enough to survive? Which may be different than your enough to thrive. Right, but you have to at least hit the enough survive before you start thinking about giving away excess. So when I talk about collective action, I'm not talking for those people who haven't hit enough who are always struggling and can't get to enough who, who survival is not even covered yet.
You don't need to be thinking about collective action. You need to get yourself to that place where you are able to survive. You have your oxygen mask on, then that excess that you're talking about. That's where I would challenge people to start to think about what does collective action look like? What does it look like to use this excess in a way that funds or helps all of us?
Some of that might be helping your family and the people [00:38:00] you care about, especially when you have marginalized identity and so the people in your world, right? But it can also look like, how do I use some of that excess to fund things like mutual aid or philanthropic endeavors of organizations that are doing good work in this world?
Right? So yeah, I do think it's important, as you said, like. Up to that enough. I don't, because I think that's what we see too often is the folks who have the most marginalized identities, and there's, I think, stats to prove this tend to be the most generous,
Rachel Duncan: and tend to me sometimes give more than they can really afford, and I love spirit, but like, okay, you know. There, there is a bit of, um, yeah, the tending to yourself and that you can be generous and contribute in so many ways. There's time, there's also like connections, like there's care, compassion, like there's so many resources we have, you know, network, all of that.
You have a section on network, don't you?
Becky Mollenkamp: Well, yeah, network, because the I the phrase your network is your net net worth. It really upsets me because it's such a privilege statement and yes it is. It's a way of [00:39:00] perpetuating, of passing privilege and keeping privilege within a certain identity because that's what it ends up looking like. And I want to challenge people.
I think our network is a valuable resource, and I'm not saying network is bad. It is when the network ends up being something that perpetuates itself so it all looks the same and we're just passing the benefit, the privilege from one privileged person to
Rachel Duncan: Or maybe the question who is in your network?
Becky Mollenkamp: Exactly. It's challenging you to examine your network.
Who's in that? How do you help others benefit by bringing people in that are not normally included in an in that network? How do we start to introduce those voices into the space? I mean, that's kind of the challenge through so much in the book, is to think beyond our own privilege and how for those with privilege and those.
You know, there's also plenty in the book for those who have less privilege, who are, have, do, have more marginalized identities on being able to, I think so much of that then is honoring that for yourself. 'cause what often ends up happening is there shame that comes up. Why can't I figure this out? Why am I not [00:40:00] being invited into the rooms?
What am I doing wrong When it's, so much of it is like having love and compassion for yourself to recognize you are not doing it wrong. The system is wrong. The system is what's broken, not you.
Rachel Duncan: Right. And if you are in a place of having some agency there, really thinking about who, who is not in your room and you know. Yeah. And considering broadening that. You know, it actually reminds me, have you seen, I think it's on Netflix, the Arnold Schwarzenegger documentary series. I've seen that. Okay.
I know this like out nowhere.
I'm very interested on what it's about because.
I mean, I, I I, I do think he's a really interesting person, like agree or not agree. But one thing that's actually remarkable about him is he talks about all the people who helped him. He really does not talk about, like, it's not, I did it myself.
It's, I happen to be in the right place at the right time. I can't believe that person connected me to that person. And I like, it was such a surprising facet of his story. And um, it was kind [00:41:00] of like in these three phases, like his body middle phase, his acting phase and his political phase. And um, but he really, really talks about that.
He's like, well, he's a social butterfly. And that like it. It, it really, it was about happenstance. It was about, his gratitude for the people around him, you know, like say what you will about him. I, I found it a very surprising aspect of his story and maybe also comes from his more European roots.
Becky Mollenkamp: That's what I was gonna say. have a feeling the fact that he's not American helps him because European roots, they tend to be a little more collectivist in their thinking than we are because yeah, there's this whole self-made notion that we have. No one is self-made. You're not. Right. And the network is a piece of that, right?
For sure. And access. Access is so important. And part of that's access to financial education, access to being in rooms, access to people who are gonna hire and, and to the hiring process. Even being invited in for an interview. I mean, there's. Plenty of evidence too, around what [00:42:00] names are less likely to even get an interview on, you know, when that name shows up on a resume and the racist roots in that.
So yeah, that's such an important part of this that gets overlooked too. And money is, again, one really important and powerful piece of liberation. It's not the only part, and that may be for many people, money may not be the place where they can start to see the liberation process. First because they may not have much or access, but there are other places where we can start to do that.
Like maybe for you time is the place that you do that. Maybe it is your network where you start to do the liberation process. There's different entry points into everyone's liberation journey can look different. And it's thinking about each of those parts of our lives. And again, going back to. First starting with awareness.
So when you, if you're talking about networking awareness looks like who is in the room, who isn't in the room, what's keeping people from, feeling from those people who aren't here? What's making them perhaps not feel comfortable to be in the What's making me think I can't invite them into the room?
[00:43:00] Who benefits by them not being in the room. I always love that question. Who benefits from this and who doesn't from something that's a, you know, bigger thing. Also down to just ourselves. Who benefits from me feeling this way? Who benefits from me thinking this way? Those are really good questions for us on that, you know, awareness piece before we even get into making change.
Rachel Duncan: Well, I think that's actually a beautiful note to, I think this is the most perfect soundbite to kind of wrap up, I think was so much of your book is about, and um, and I know there's also a lot that we didn't cover. I'm so glad we could like, hone in on just the money piece. But I know you've got chapters on all sorts of other stuff.
Um, Becky tell us how can, how can people get their hands on this, on this beautiful.
Becky Mollenkamp: beckymollenkamp.com/book or as of April 30th, that'll be available on amazon bookshop.org. Barnes and Noble, most of the places, or you can go to your library and ask them to get it in ebook or, um, print book. I don't have the audio book because as you mentioned, it's not a, i, I don't love for non-fiction.
I don't love long form narrative. Personally, I like books, business books [00:44:00] especially that kind of just. Give me stuff to do. this book has a lot of that. It's a lot of like, here's what to do, here's an exercise, here's a tool you can use.
Rachel Duncan: It feels more like a workbook in so many ways. I really hope people get their hands on it, you know, even whether or not you're in business. I think it will really shake up when we feel like limited or constrained or hopeless. I feel like your book gives, um, hope and it's not empty hope.
It's like, really, here's some different ways of thinking in different practices and things to do, which I so appreciated. Or give it as the perfect gift for the entrepreneur in your life.
Becky Mollenkamp: Well, thank you. Yes. And I do wanna just quickly say thank you to all of the amazing black and brown indigenous folks from whom I drew knowledge and who have been incredible educators to me over time, even though most of them don't know my name, um, that help me to, to write what's in this book. So it's not, I don't wanna even begin to tell people it's my genius.
It's genius that I have distilled from, you know, legacies of genius.
Rachel Duncan: your references are gold in the in themselves, for
Becky Mollenkamp: Yeah, I think if you want just a really great reading [00:45:00] list, go check the reference list the book 'cause it's, uh, it's spot on.
Rachel Duncan: So good. All right, so Becky, I'd love to ask you the question I ask all my guests, which is, you can come, just give me your first instinctive answer. Take a breath. If you were to imagine your money as a creature, what's the first thing that pops to mind?
Becky Mollenkamp: I really feel like this is the creature that just speaks to all parts of my life in so ways, and it sounds horrible, but a sloth because it's slow, but it's really intentional. A sloth moves with the greatest of intention. If you ever see them move, they do move incredibly slow, but it's because they're being really thoughtful about what they want.
do and how they wanna expend their energy, what's worth expending energy. And I feel like with money, that's kind of where I'm at. It's like, it, it sometimes feels slow coming in. It feels like slow growth with, you know, um, with my own process of trying to get to my enoughness or surpass my enoughness and then use that.
But it's because it's intentional. And I love that relationship [00:46:00] that I have with money now, where in the past it felt hurried and scary and volatile, and now it feels more like it moves like a really thoughtful sloth.
Rachel Duncan: And Oh,
Becky Mollenkamp: I appreciate the sloth. I love the sloth.
Rachel Duncan: and they're so darn cute.
Becky Mollenkamp: I mean, come on
Rachel Duncan: Very endearing.
Becky Mollenkamp: it's my dream to someday get to pet a sloth.
Rachel Duncan: And I, my hope for you is that your money grows so beautifully and and intentionally that it even grows moss on its back. Right? Because that's what sloths love that. They're so cute.
Becky Mollenkamp: The, I want my money to be the tree that the on and
Rachel Duncan: on their little hooked toes.
Becky Mollenkamp: I know. Aren't they the cutest? I love sloths. just feel like they get a bad rap, but they're the best.
Rachel Duncan: I, they look like they're smiling. No, probably not. Well, Becky, thank you so much for sharing about your beautiful sloth energy. I love that. And, um, for your amazing book. And I would have just loved being connected to you. And also I wanna, can we just plug the Feminist Podcasters Collective because there are, if, if anyone needs to like [00:47:00] freshen up.
Their podcast list. Check out all the amazing creators that you have brought together, um, and support in the, in the collective. It's them.
Becky Mollenkamp: feministpods.com and you can check us out. There's a member list there with all of our cool shows. We have, I, I don't know. I'm a little biased, but I think we're pretty awesome.
Rachel Duncan: a rad list. Like, and really everything, like, it's not, it's not all like political or deep thought,
right?
Becky Mollenkamp: It's not all business. It's not. We have just the most amazing mix. We have people who are talking about movies and smutty books and
Rachel Duncan: everything. favorite. It's a really good list, so thank you for bringing us all together Thank you
Becky Mollenkamp: being part of it
Rachel Duncan: and thank
Becky Mollenkamp: for
Rachel Duncan: your
Becky Mollenkamp: show and for all that you do.
Rachel Duncan: Thank you, thank you, thank you.
Becky Mollenkamp: Love fest.
Rachel Duncan: It's just a love that I'll give you that.
Thank you Becky so much.
Becky Mollenkamp: Thanks, Rachel
Rachel Duncan: That's the Money Healing Club podcast, everyone. And now a little honest money moment because hey, that is what I do here. I want you to know that it [00:48:00] costs about $400 to produce each episode, and right now that is funded through my other financial therapy work. So my ask is this, if this show has helped you feel even a little less ashamed.
Less alone, more grounded in your money story. I'd love for you to support it financially. Go on over to moneyhealingclub.com/podcast and you'll see the button to contribute to the show. Think of it as helping keep this a soft place to land. That's open to everyone. We are also always looking for new listener questions and stories to feature on an upcoming episode.
So you can go to that same page, moneyhealingclub.com/podcast. Go to the big orange button where you can record your story, your question right from your phone or browser. And if you're craving more support, there's lots of other financial therapy goodness happening at moneyhealingclub.com. From [00:49:00] group programs to courses to working one-on-one with me.
You don't have to do this alone. Production support for the podcast by Sydney Harbosky sydneyharbosky.com. We are also a proud member of the Feminist Podcasters Collective, where creators like me are building podcasts to make a better world together. I will see you next time.