S2 E45: 🌍 Financial Therapy in Action: How Your Culture Shapes Your Money Blocks
EPISODE SUMMARY
The money beliefs holding you back aren't just yours. They were handed to you by your culture, your religion, your family, and maybe even your country.
In this special episode of the Money Healing Club podcast, Rachel Duncan(financial therapist and art therapist) sits down with Ali, a guest joining from Pakistan. This isn't a traditional guest interview. It's a raw, minimally edited, live financial therapy coaching session recorded with Ali’s full permission. You'll hear the pauses, the processing, the emotion, and the complexity as it all unfolds in real time. This episode gets into the push-pull with money rooted in scarcity, culture, and what happens when being visible and successful carries real risk.
"It's more like an energy that I am attracting as well as resisting and pushing away. That push-pull, I feel it's because of the childhood learnings that were taken from my caretakers and the surroundings and the beliefs that I made around them." — Ali
Key Takeaways:
Scarcity mindset often gets installed through small everyday moments, not just big financial events
The gap between outer presentation and inner reality is a money pattern, not just a cultural one
Abandoning projects right at the moment of praise is a real pattern, and it has roots
Breaking with tradition to grow a business isn't just hard. Sometimes it can be dangerous.
You don't have to be the head goose all the time. Learning your rhythm is part of money healing
About Ali: Ali is based in Pakistan, where he runs his family's plastic packaging manufacturing business. He's also an emotional intelligence coach, NLP practitioner, and youth counselor on his own six-year healing journey. His identity is kept anonymous for safety, but his willingness to share openly makes this one of the most generous conversations we've had on this show. Rachel is actively looking to connect Ali with resources in sustainable manufacturing and executive leadership communities in Southeast Asia. If that's you, reach out to at howdy@moneyhealingclub.com.
⏰ EPISODE BREAKDOWN:
00:00 | A Different Kind of Episode Rachel sets the scene: this is a real, live coaching session, not a polished expert interview. Trigger warning included for content touching on religion, politics, gender, and the very real risks of breaking from tradition in Pakistan.
04:30 | Meet Ali: The Push-Pull With Money Ali introduces himself and describes the tension at the core of his money story: feeling simultaneously that wealth belongs to him AND that he doesn't deserve it. His nervous system proves it in real time.
13:00 | The Toblerone Memory One chocolate bar. Thirteen family members. A knife. This early childhood scarcity memory unpacks into a whole conversation about how our first experiences with "not enough" get wired into how we relate to money as adults.
40:00 | The Evil Eye, Visibility, and Business A rich exploration of the cultural concept of Nazar (the evil eye): where it came from, what it was meant to protect, and how it quietly shuts down sharing success, celebrating wins, and being seen in business.
☎️ Join the Conversation!
This episode brought up a LOT. We want to hear from you: what cultural belief about money did you grow up with that you're still untangling today?
Click the big orange button on our site right from your phone or browser and leave us a voice message: https://www.moneyhealingclub.com/podcast
🎧 Your next listen:
Dig into the archive for more episodes on money, the nervous system, and emotional healing at moneyhealingclub.com/podcast
💝 Support the Podcast
Help keep the Money Healing Club podcast going! If this show has helped you feel less alone or more grounded with money, please consider contributing: https://www.moneyhealingclub.com/podcast
🌟 Want more help?
🤑 FreeEmail Course: Curb impulse spending with compassion and mindfulness at moneyhealingclub.com/challenge
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🌍 Financial Therapy in Action: How Your Culture Shapes Your Money Blocks
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[00:00:00]
Rachel Duncan: Welcome back to the Money Healing Club podcast. I'm your host, Rachel Duncan. I'm a financial therapist, art therapist, and founder of the Money Healing Club. It's a special place for financial therapy experiences from a membership
to group classes, individual work, and courses to become better friends with your money from the inside out, check out moneyhealingclub.com. Reminder that this podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. It does not replace mental health care or financial advice. Before we dive in, I wanna make a quick note.
This episode is really different. I'm so excited to share it with you. This is a conversation but not an expert interview. This is actually a real unscripted coaching session with me and an anonymous person, Ali, who you'll meet with a unique story to tell, so you'll hear all of the pauses, the processing, the [00:01:00] emotion, the complexity as this session unfolds in real time.
It's a taste of what financial therapy coaching with me looks like with full permission from my guest to share it. I wanna mention a trigger warning or a few trigger warnings. This conversation touches on the intersection of money with politics, religion, specifically Islam, and the cultural norms of where my guest is from Pakistan, where the risks of being seen breaking from tradition can be quite high.
There are references in this conversation to political, gender, and religious violence, so please take care of yourself as you listen.
This conversation came about from Ali reaching out to me to learn more about financial therapy, and our first call was so open and thoughtful and unexpected. I asked if we could record or if he'd be willing to have a recorded conversation and share a version of it while keeping his identity [00:02:00] protected for safety, and he was really excited to help more people remove the layers of shame around money by sharing our talk.
Ali runs his family business of manufacturing plastic packaging in Pakistan. He's also an emotional intelligence coach, neurolinguistic programming practitioner, and a youth counselor. What you'll hear in this conversation is someone navigating a deep push pull experience with money that you might relate to.
There's this tension between going towards and restricting visibility and safety, success and shame. Also, what is Ali's hobby rejecting compliments. That feels pretty universal, huh? We explore how his moral environmental consciousness can impact his earning, in his case, running a plastics business while also questioning its impact and needing to make a living.
I think you'll hear a perspective on money [00:03:00] here that. Sometimes might feel different from your own and other times, deeply familiar. It just shows how we all really deserve a place to have a nonjudgmental conversation about money. One quick ask if you know anyone who works in packaging or sustainable manufacturing in Southeast Asia who could support Ali with executive leadership and maybe a business community, I'd really love to connect him with those resources so you can reach out, email me directly, howdy@moneyhealingclub.com or through my website and I can connect you privately with him.
I'd really appreciate it. And as always, we are not here to judge. We are here to understand and connect with what's real. And this conversation is a beautiful one. And it's also very funny and light.
It's not as heavy as I might have made it out to, uh, to seem. I'm really proud to share it with you. So let's talk about what we don't usually say when we talk about money, culture and being seen [00:04:00] with Ali.
Rachel Duncan: welcome to the Money Healing Club podcast. I'm so glad to have you and thank you for telling us a little bit about your story about money, um, as this is sort of a different type of episode where we're gonna have, um, a conversation with you, like a more, a regular person also that's in a country that is not the country I grew up in, and we can just have a really open dialogue about what money's been like for you and is like for you. Um, also give our listeners a little taste of sort of what a first session with me might be like. So thank you for being here.
Ali: Thank you. Thank you very much for inviting me for your session. And, uh, I come from a country that's called Pakistan. Uh, not very rare. It's, it's rarely heard about, but uh, the social. Cultures that we are brought up with is more like a scarcity mindset from childhood only. We [00:05:00] are taught that money does not grow on trees and such hardcore beliefs that you've gotta work hard to actually make, make money.
And, uh, uh, it's been like six years now I'm on my healing journey that I did, uh, understand humanistic behaviors and, uh, a lot of emotional intelligence, which, which I now understand would, should have been taught to us as children.
Rachel Duncan: yeah.
Ali: Those tools that I literally had to go and handpick them myself. They are basic navigation tools that should have been given to us at childhood.
But, uh, anyhow. Uh, I'm thankful that I did get a lot on my journey and, uh, there still are blockages, which I feel that, uh, uh, I, I [00:06:00] personally feel that the money, it's, it's more like an energy that I am attracting as well as resisting and pushing away and that push hyper. I, I feel it's because of the childhood, uh, learnings that were taken from my caretakers and the surroundings and the beliefs that I made around him.
Rachel Duncan: I mean, there you've already brought up like so many points of tension and opposition, right? How you grew up versus what you're learning as an adult. Um, how, wow, I could be one way with money this day and another way with money another day. Like there's so much dynamics that there, you, I'm just, I'm hearing so many stories of, of, of attention, of things.
Two opposites existing at the same time. Is that something that you feel?
Ali: Yeah, I feel it all the time. It's like a push and a pull from within. It's more like my inner gut [00:07:00] has a resistance that I should, I don't deserve, and, and any desire that too, is coming from the heart, which wants it and says, and claims it too, that no, I, this all belongs to me
Rachel Duncan: So
one hand, this does belong to me. I'm attracting wealth. This makes sense. And the other equally strong voice is saying, I don't deserve this.
Money should not be easy. I should. There should be more pain and struggle.
Ali: Absolutely there should be more. You've not been through enough pain and struggle that you deserve. What is there
Rachel Duncan: Oof. Okay. Hang on. I have not been through enough pain and struggle to deserve. Did you say what's there? Yeah.
Ali: Yeah,
Rachel Duncan: Oof. feels old. This feels very old.
Ali: and my body is, I, I, I can feel the temperature rise in my body and although it's the winters over here, [00:08:00] but still, I'm, I'm, I'm
Rachel Duncan: Okay. Feel your temperature. Yeah. There's some heat, right? If you feel safe, we can just notice that your nervous system is like, I don't know about this conversation. This is not something we talk about. Could you like let me know a little bit about. What is it like in Pakistan? Just talking about money or personal finance?
Like what are some of the traditions or, and specifically with your family, because I'm sure there's a huge variety.
Ali: The tradition over here, I would say is people show off a lot. It's a show off society. Even if you don't have it, you just, for the validation and for the accreditations, you gotta show that you have a lot. People take cars on rent and say, pro post that, oh, this is my car. And you know, just to get that validation.
But it's all fake within, so it's, it's inside. They're an imposter and uh, they're just, but at the end of the day, who are they? Fooling? They're fooling [00:09:00] themselves
and they get
Rachel Duncan: there again, a real difference, what I show in the world might not have anything to do with what's going on on the other
side. Yeah.
And from, um. I I shared this on the podcast before I was a religion major, and a good chunk of my studies was in Islam. Did, did you grow up in an Islamic family?
Ali: Oh yes. My entire family was extremely religious. My father, he gives sermons and my mother too. They, they both give, uh, in the English language and they have their own followers and community.
Rachel Duncan: Oh, wow.
Ali: Yeah. So I was brought up in an extremely religious back, you know, upbringing. And I literally had a beard till I was 26, some years after which I, uh, explored the other side.
I broke the standard, uh, standards of following blindly, and I started to question, that's when I realized the backlashes [00:10:00] that I started to get and I had to make and navigate my ways, uh, with much more. You know, caution. I had to be much more at
Rachel Duncan: It can be unsafe to be different. I, yeah. You have a more clean shaven face now, and even that, it sounds like a huge act of rebellion.
Ali: Uh, okay. Uh, yeah, clean shave is not too much now because it's more acceptable in the society, but, uh, questioning why is a very big, uh, you know, no, no. In this country we are neighboring with Afghanistan and Iran, all the Islamic religious, uh, countries. And, uh, over here people do get, uh, they, they have to lose their life if they actually, uh, cross.
Yeah, I dunno if you're aware of Salman Taseer. He was, he was a big time politician and, uh, [00:11:00] in support of a Christian woman. In the name of blasphemy who was killed. He's, he just used a few statements and his own security guard shot him down in the name of religion. So it was, it was very sad.
Rachel Duncan: I appreciate you, you describing these stories and how this shapes a culture of, you know, breaking with standards, doing something different than your family, um, is not just scary. It can be dangerous and, and you have to be so careful with it and, and, and how, how I'm presenting to the outside world, right?
That's like a real protection versus what's going on inside. There might be very different things. It sounds like you yourself are on your own journey breaking with tradition, which takes a ton of guts and I'm imagining you must work really hard to kind of separate these two things so that you can be safe.
Ali: Yeah, it's like, it's like you've gotta keep a [00:12:00] facade just to keep yourself alive. It's, you cannot be a true, authentic self, a hundred percent. And the one who actually starts saying that out loud gets shot and taken over, taken down. But, but then again, we've learned how to navigate in the best of interest for ourselves.
You know, 20, 30, 40 years of our lives we've been navigating. And, uh, at times a lot of people just give in and then they start following the others. Whereas few people like me, uh, either they leave the country or the ones who are actually staying in our country, they're, they're, uh, they're living dual lives.
They have their own set of friends who they can talk openly with. And then there is the public out there at large. You gotta be very, very careful and mindful.
Rachel Duncan: yeah, yeah. Wow. I appreciate hearing that a lot. Um, could you tell me. Could you describe an early [00:13:00] experience with money, like maybe from childhood or teenage years? Something personal to you?
Ali: Okay, so I was brought up in a joint family and, um, I, I, I'll, I'll share an experience that I remember vividly, like a toblerone used to come. One chocolate of toblerone owned. It used to get divided into three or four because we were 13 members in that house. But you know what, Rachel, I, till date, I, now I have a whole toblerone, but I don't get the taste that I used to get in that one bite of toblerone.
Rachel Duncan: Okay. So setting this scene, someone who brings in the toblerone, like who brought that,
Ali: Uh, it was my grandfather most of the time.
Rachel Duncan: so grandfather brings the big stick
and then is it broken up between all the children?
Ali: Yeah, it's, it's, uh, a proper knife is used so that they're broken up into smaller pieces. And then after [00:14:00] counting that the toblerone is smaller than the number of people, so that is further sliced up and then distributed to smaller children.
Rachel Duncan: Gotcha. And what was your experience of that chocolate at that time?
Ali: Oh, they were, they were really, really delicious. We used to fight for that, and it was like a fun time thing.
Rachel Duncan: Hmm. Mm-hmm.
Ali: And now after so many years, we, we moved out and things like that, and now we can buy our own full one toblerone per person. But then again, the taste of that toblerone, it's, it's actually now I feel that it's the first bite that actually gives us the taste.
After that, how many ever toblerone you keep munching is just an extra calorie going onto your fat.
Rachel Duncan: Well, I'm thinking two things. I'm thinking it could be that it did taste better in your childhood because I think the standards of chocolate has changed. I mean, I'm no expert, but I also think it probably did taste a little bit better, or it might have, [00:15:00] but yet, isn't it interesting when we're like, that first experience is, can be so high key, like you said, the first bite or something when you're young and it's the first time your, your, your brain gets so excited about that new thing.
But then what's happened is your brain learns and so that the next time, even as an adult, you get that toblerone and your brain's already prepping for that high experience and actually kind of starts to intentionally mute the experience, which is really interesting. Um, and then it's like, oh, this let, is there a little bit of a letdown?
Then when you get a chocolate now.
Ali: Uh, not, not a let down, but it does take me back in the memory and how we used to, you know, fight for those chocolates. And maybe at times snatch from the smaller child and
pop it down.
Rachel Duncan: Right. Like you said at the beginning, like this scarcity thing, like there's not much of it. There's only this one chocolate bar. It's such a small piece. Or they don't, you know, it brings out a different side of us when it feels like there's just not enough to go around. And sometimes that's literally the case.
[00:16:00] There's not enough to go around. Yeah,
Ali: Yeah. That's where the scarcity mindset is set. Very true.
Rachel Duncan: yeah. Yeah. That's a powerful memory also. 'cause it's not directly about money, and then in some ways it kind of is like, do you feel like this experience with the toblerone in your family, was it kind of indicative of other ways money was handled?
Ali: Uh, as I'm, as I'm thinking, I remember that at times we were given chocolates saying that, okay, don't say this to your brother. This is only for you and it's gonna be a secret. Now, after so many years, I have a nephew by my name Ali, and uh, he had come the other day, I gave him a thousand Rupees Pakistani just because he had done something.
I, I was like, you're not gonna tell this to your mom or your brothers and sisters? No, no, no. I cannot say that. Otherwise they will take it from me. And I'm like, shit, that is, that is so deeply embedded that, [00:17:00] uh, maybe, maybe not even take it from me, but they will have an evil eye, as in it's a word called Nazar in Pakistan, it's called an evil eye that somebody looking at your will, uh, you know, give you an evil eye and might get destroyed.
Rachel Duncan: Wow. Right. Even if it's not about the money itself, but like
they will see me in a way
they, this will change their perception of me. What's really interesting about family secrets and even
like, you know, sealing the deal with the chocolate of the family secrets, oh,
Ali: Um,
Rachel Duncan: and I can under, right, you can understand the survival.
Like there are some things you don't want let out. Um, and then, but then the, the weight that, that puts, like on a kid, right? We don't talk about
about this.
Ali: only the weight, it's like, uh, how I observed it is that it was a moment of pleasure and joy that he received a bonus or money for something that, something good that he did. [00:18:00] But he has to have shame and then, you know, pressurize it with some kind of, no, no, I should not be showing this. It's something bad. I, if I show it, it'll go away.
So that entire, you know, emotion of happiness, joy, sharing it with your, sharing a good news with your family is all gone.
Rachel Duncan: mm I think it's so interesting also, you, you brought this recent thing, right? You're a grown man. Can, can I ask how old you are?
Ali: I'm 43 now.
Rachel Duncan: Right? You're 43 now, and like, ah, you're seeing this play out as you've been doing your own kind of internal work. And this experience with your nephew as a proud of, like how would you have liked that conversation to go?
Like how, what would you wish for him? When he
Ali: I, okay. I was, I was just pro, you know, taking that direction so that I could know what is in the family that was encoded in our brains as a child. [00:19:00] And I wish that, uh, it could be much more, uh, open where you don't have too many secrets or shushing about victories. And, uh, instead of feeling that the other person will have an evil eye on my, uh, um, victories, celebrate that and not be, not, not let the other person be jealous about it.
Rachel Duncan: And it sounds like. I want that to be safe. I want it to be safe to share a pleasurable thing, to share a victory. I feel like there's a story of safety,
right?
Ali: Yeah, and if you're not safe with your siblings, who else can you be safe with? Now I realized that my mindset of not showing my victories, my certificates, any kind of achievement that I ever did, I used to just come back home, keep it in the cupboard, and not share it with others. That's when I started to tap in and, okay, this was the reason that, you know, there's a lot of [00:20:00] shame and other emotions embedded with it.
Rachel Duncan: These layers. Now it's, it's interesting when we experience a feeling like, like, um, some pride, but if, or, you know, happiness or fear, whatever it is, some pure emotion. But then if there's a layer of shame, I shouldn't be feeling this. What happens is then that feeling gets associated with shame, right? The shame kind of embeds that emotional experience with a real color, it kind of makes it sticky and, um, ugh. It's always, it's when shame is in the room with any other experience. Oof. It just gets it kind of solidified in this way of like, this is really hard to work with. Am I allowed to feel that feeling? Because the shame taught us we're not allowed to feel that feeling. And it's probably protective, right? Like you said, like it's literally, it's life threatening to be different, to be seen in certain ways, to be breaking with tradition. So I see this all, it's a very complex interplay, [00:21:00] isn't it? Yeah,
Ali: It is so complex with so many emotions and meshed together that stripping each emotion separate and then evaluating, oh, this is, this pure emotion is not very easy, especially maybe at this age, I don't know.
Rachel Duncan: yeah, yeah. I think about, wait, how old is your nephew? I'm curious. He's like.
Ali: Uh, sorry. Go.
Rachel Duncan: How old is your nephew?
Ali: My nephew is seven.
Rachel Duncan: Oh, okay. Yeah. Quite young and yeah. You know, so many of our money beliefs are formed by age eight is what the research says. So it's like, okay, he is, he's learning these things. Look what he's already learned. And then also, huh, he has maybe a slightly different experience with this one uncle. And why start broadening, right.
Not encouraging him to do anything unsafe, but like, oh, that's interesting, right? That that uncle had a different type of money conversation with me. Right. That sets, that sets the wheels in motion for [00:22:00] maybe a different experience of money.
Ali: Yeah. Yeah. I remember they used to come, these type of angels in my life also when I was a child and I used to be surprised that, oh, these people do. They do. They actually exist. But then when I used to go to my. Caretakers and you know, share the entire experience. The only answer is that, oh, these people do drama.
I'm like, okay, these are the ones who do drama. And later on I found out who are the ones actually doing the drama.
Rachel Duncan: Interesting. What do you mean by drama?
Ali: Well, by drama is like, um, uh, they are saying something and feeling something. Otherwise
Rachel Duncan: Oh,
Ali: it's a dichotomy.
Rachel Duncan: Sort of manipulation or not quite?
Ali: yes. I used to wonder why would they be manipulating? They're being so honest. They've been so cut through cutthroat, and the most unusual [00:23:00] answers,
Rachel Duncan: Mm-hmm.
Ali: they were the authentic people and the ones who were my, you know, caretakers, unmindful, because they also did not know better had they known anything better, they would've performed in that manner.
Rachel Duncan: Of course, we're all doing the best we can in that moment, and sometimes it's upholding traditions that sort of, um, you know, maintaining the tradition that. So that we're all notes, we're all on the same page.
Ali: Yeah. And not only maintaining the position, it's actually you've, you've said something for so many years and now you cannot back out and say, no, I was wrong.
Rachel Duncan: Yeah.
Ali: is one thing that Keep continuing it.
Rachel Duncan: Yeah. So, okay. Fast forward to, you know, more recent times, you know, with you as an adult. Could you tell me a little more, if there's maybe an example recently where you felt this push and pull with money? Like, part of me wants to attract it. Attract it. Part of it is pushing it away. Tell me, is there an example [00:24:00] where that came up?
Ali: Uh, uh, the only example that I can come up right now is, uh, the expenses. I went on a holiday to Malaysia. Although internally I felt, no, I don't have the finances. I can't do it. I know I'll not be able to pull it up. Take my kid. We've got two kids, teenagers, and they were the ones who, um, who initiated the plan and I did not know how it got executed.
Went through, had the most wonderful time and came back. I, I never thought that I would be able to put it off, but thankfully it, it went like a very easy thing. So internally, I feel that, okay. Um, the push and pull, if I have to word it, um, I feel, um, okay, there's this business that I am, I [00:25:00] am already into with my family business, and, um, as soon as I get closer to getting a contract.
Suddenly it disappears and it disappears. Like it never existed.
The client, the client, the client's order the, the entire thing. Okay. So, um, and the push, why is that coming? It's like, I feel that internally, uh, on this healing journey, I realized that plastics is one thing that is ruining the world
Rachel Duncan: Mm-hmm.
Ali: my businesses of manufacturing plastic products.
Rachel Duncan: Yeah.
Ali: So me executing a new business deal gets disappeared,
whereas I
Rachel Duncan: there's, there's almost like a subconscious thing, like, I'm not sure I'm really
behind what I'm selling, but I have to, 'cause this is my business and like, I, I [00:26:00] can't,
that is what it
Ali: it, I'm consciously, logically working at it,
Rachel Duncan: Yeah.
Ali: getting the person to the deal. Like right bang on. The rates are final, everything is done, and last minute boom. The the customer says, I don't want it anymore. I'm like, what happened?
Rachel Duncan: And you're kind of wondering, am I part of that not happening? Did part of me block it from
happening? Is that the question?
Ali: yes, yes, yes. I feel that it is my inner core value. Maybe that, uh, plastics is not good for the universe, and I don't know, we are not using plastics in a very healthy manner.
Rachel Duncan: Mm-hmm. In
Ali: No
Rachel Duncan: moments. Yeah. Do you have some ideas about how it could go differently? Obviously this is on your mind, like how could
Ali: This, this is gonna,
Rachel Duncan: very, I don't know anything about the plastics industry. Um, so maybe you could teach us, like Yeah. What direction could it [00:27:00] go with what, you know, that would feel a little more aligned.
Ali: okay, so this is very, very, in a very fetal state. Like yesterday only I thought over it, how to come up with a better way to actually navigate through this. It's like, uh, there are better sustainable ways that only a person who is dedicated can get into, which is either recycling, adding different additives, which makes it more biodegradable and much more healthier for this planet and it can, you know, destroy on its own.
So this is what I'm, it's, it's in a very, uh, basic state that I'm putting in more in, uh, incubating the idea of, you know, finishing the resistance. That at least I'm making a difference for the universe over here.
Rachel Duncan: So you're saying like the technology exists, you kind of have some ideas of how it might happen. It would be, I'm guessing, a pretty big change in business though, to implement some
of
this, or would it be [00:28:00]
Ali: It would be a very big shift because, uh, 95% of the industries over here are not using any kind of sustainable ecological ways because it is expensive, it is an extra cost, and neither the government is giving any kind of subsidy or assistance that could make it more sustainable. So I am trying to, you know, navigate myself making letters so that I can submit in the government to make it more viable, reduce the taxes duties so that
Rachel Duncan: Mm-hmm.
Ali: a, a, a shift starts happening and maybe then my own resistance fades down and I feel that I'm putting in something for the
Rachel Duncan: yeah. There'd be a cultural shift, wouldn't there?
Ali: It would be a big cultural shift. Yes. So far plastic is just being either burnt or, uh, dumped in the, as a landfill or the sea.
Rachel Duncan: Yeah, let's just put it plainly. That's what's happening. There's been a lot [00:29:00] recent news in the states of the last few years. 'cause you know, there's all these recycling programs and pretty much plastic is not recycled. And, um, that we're all sorting our stuff and then it's, yeah, just like you're saying, often it shipped to Asia
and there it sits. Um,
very rarely, like other materials are pretty, I've heard are are recycled more and yeah, plastics, they do sit there and there's a, there needs to be a cultural shift. I think this is really interesting. What a, what a point of tension. You're in Ali, like in the present day moment, we gotta sign these contracts so that your business can keep running so that
you can make the change later.
Ali: exactly.
Rachel Duncan: But they, it's that classic phrase of means to an end, doesn't it?
Ali: I agree. But, but, but is there a better way to navigate as in, you know, lessen the volume that is coming from within the, the codependency that I am. [00:30:00] On my inner critic,
Rachel Duncan: Mm. Mm-hmm. Could we talk to that inner critic a little bit?
Ali: um, no, I don't know.
Rachel Duncan: Okay.
Ali: Doesn't respond so well. Maybe it's too manipulative.
Rachel Duncan: There's too many, which,
Ali: It's too manipulate. The inner voice is too manipulative, so it doesn't come out too much in the open, although I want it to come out and be straightforward the way it is.
Rachel Duncan: Oh yeah. But that's not how it works because it wants to
sneak in. It doesn't really wanna be known. It wants to, um, have the mask of truth.
Ali: yeah.
Rachel Duncan: Yeah. Yeah. We could just notice it. It's probably there. It's probably
Ali: Hmm.
Rachel Duncan: like to do something different. And to kind of like back up and take a whole view of, of what you've shared already is doing something differently than the norm. [00:31:00] I mean, it's hard for anyone, but particularly where you are, it's, there's even a edge of danger breaking the norm. You've done it with your family, you're doing it, you're looking at doing it with your business, and there's a vulnerability there. I'm wondering.
Ali: Okay. Uh, something's coming up for me. I would like to share this, that, uh, you know, there are most of the people in this world, they enjoy the safe, the norm. Whereas me, if there's a new business idea, new business project, I would be interested in going there, starting it, and then returning back, saying that, oh, I've done my part, and I just retract.
I don't know, how do I, how do I complete the cycle and make it self-sustaining and then leave, or maybe keep an eye on it [00:32:00] monthly basis.
Rachel Duncan: Well, are you, is it your responsibility to do all those parts?
Ali: not my responsibility to do all the parts, but if I'm initiating something and, uh, complete completing the entire thing and not abandoning it midway because that's what I've been doing with the, I've, I've, like, started five businesses in between and abandoned them midway, like not midway. Taking it to a place where people are praising me like anything, oh, you did a fantastic job.
And I'm like, oh, that's not me. I just,
Rachel Duncan: Oh
Ali: so, yeah. I like not liking praises has been my favorite pastime, like anybody saying
Rachel Duncan: What's your hobby? Rejecting compliments?
Ali: Yeah. It's like I could deflect the every, every compliment that I would get. It's like, ah, this was not [00:33:00] me. It was just the luck.
Rachel Duncan: I'm thinking a few things here. I think, I think all of us have different strengths. I do think there's some folks out there where the strength is starting things, the innovators, and I think this is a huge generalization and probably not true in every case, but I think some of the folks who are, are innovative, who have the new ideas
are not really the ones to execute and carry it through because it gets kind of boring. I think there are other people who love coming in, taking an idea and making it work. Right. The more, um, I don't know what you say, like that, that that type of person, there's, there's that strength as well. Right. I think that there are different strengths. I think when we, sometimes we think we need to do the whole arc. Of a business development. I, I don't know if it's a solo venture, it's just a question from what I've seen out in the world of businesses.
Ali: Yeah, I do understand that there are strengths that we have and then there are some things that we are not good at,
so we [00:34:00] can attach teams with us for fulfilling that. But, um, but then if you are the main person who is initiating it, and then it's my responsibility to take it through and attaching those right people and not abandoning it midway
Rachel Duncan: Right. that, leadership.
Ali: yeah, that leadership role and that responsibility.
So I, uh, I, I feel that yes, this was. This has been one of my weakness that I used to run away from responsibility.
Rachel Duncan: Hmm. And then how interesting you're a leader of a company with new ideas.
Oh, isn't that funny? How life works out? Like you are you, you are in now a position with your family business to
have the opportunity to make changes or you could maintain status quo
Ali: Yeah.
Rachel Duncan: and, and there's a tension there, right. While maintaining status quo [00:35:00] would, you know, grow the company as it is, it would be more predictable.
It would be in line expected or do something new, which both I get praised for and I freak out about it.
Ali: Oh yes. Wow. Yeah. You just summed it up so well, which is why I'm not doing anything new
Rachel Duncan: Hmm.
Ali: Bringing it to that peak where I know that now the praises would start coming in with more force. I quit.
Rachel Duncan: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Do you have like any, I'm wondering if you have relationships in your life with other entrepreneurs. Do you have, are you able, are you able to have these conversations with other entrepreneurs, maybe even globally?
Ali: Okay.
Rachel Duncan: Do you have, are you in touch with anyone who's, I know [00:36:00] there's many people who are in a similar situation.
Ali: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Yes. I do have a lot of friends that are entrepreneurs and, uh, they're beginning. And, um, yeah. Um, I say that I, uh, that's a very good question. It's not, it's not something that I. Um, I am pleased with maybe some, some kind of dislike for that entrepreneur. Now, this is the first time I'm thinking about it that you asked me.
I was like, wow, I should be more compassionate and empathetic with them.
Rachel Duncan: Possibly. And also like that there's maybe a, you can be choosy about the folks you wanna share this with. It just seems like it's, it's, um, it could be a really interesting thing to be part of community with other folks who are kind of, you know, everyone's on their own path, but [00:37:00] kind of have this overlap of growing a business and taking those risks and all of the, um, both excitement and resistance that they feel that you're, you're not alone in that. And, um, just having a place to kind of process that, um, could be, could be really useful, you know, to kind of, I think what's tough is when we're, we, we feel alone.
We're doing this on our own. We get the, the old shame coming in, which often exists when we're dealing with something by ourselves. Um, it's really easy to feel, to get really stuck there. And I really, I, I'm just such a firm believer, the com, the business communities I'm part of have been so key for my growth.
And not because of like any education necessarily or lesson, but just that there are just other, other entrepreneurs, you know, and we're talking about like. I just got off a call this morning. We're talking about like, oh, email sequence, how much emailing is too much. Uh, and like the emotional stuff, like emailing, like I
think it's so [00:38:00] important that we can share this stuff, um, so that we're not carrying it.
Like, and it seems from just the bit I know of you that this kind of, um, you know, compassionate, kind, verbal processing seems, it seems to work for you. Would you say that's true?
Ali: Yeah, I see making, having a community and being able to share your, uh, work and, uh, maybe daily routine with the, with a person is very important. And then again, the inner, inner, uh, you know, inner beliefs of if I share too much with friends or people, they will have an evil eye
Rachel Duncan: Uh,
yeah.
Ali: or,
Rachel Duncan: Yeah.
Ali: or they will, they will have the energy of jealousy coming towards you and they will not like it is also very hard wired within, I don't know how to get, I don't know how to release [00:39:00] that to, although on the surface level, intellectually I know.
But at times I was like, when I see my daughter's picture, like, oh, don't have to post it. I'm like, oh, why you look so beautiful. We should put it. But no
Rachel Duncan: I'd love to know more about what, when you think about the evil eye, what is its job?
Ali: what is the drama?
Rachel Duncan: What is its job like?
What is it responsible for? What is the evil eye concerned about?
Ali: Um, protection
Rachel Duncan: Hmm. Protection from what?
Ali: from a disaster from somebody, um, sending a negative vibe and destroying it.
Rachel Duncan: Hmm. Do you feel like there's a source of truth or maybe even historically that there's some truth there?[00:40:00]
Ali: No, I don't believe that there's any such truth. But yeah, there are negative and positive energies that, uh, people can emit.
Rachel Duncan: Mm-hmm.
Ali: then that negativity, if I'm not well guarded with my own positivity, then it'll affect me and add on to my negative.
Rachel Duncan: Right. There's so much with the evil eye, it sounds like. Right? How we see each other, how we can so easily hurt or help each other
just by one turn of, of opinion or one bit of gossip. Kind of
speaks to like how social we are.
Ali: That way, uh, with those, with the fear of that evil eye, your social life finishes even with your family. You are not hiding things like with your real brother. You're not showing things with your, with your parents. You're hiding. So then. Ah, who else is, [00:41:00] you know, if your parents and your siblings are gonna have an evil eye on you and who are, who are you gonna protect yourself from?
Rachel Duncan: Friendly people on the internet. This conversation right here,
Ali: Yeah.
Rachel Duncan: um, yeah. No, I, oh, this cultural stuff is so important. I wanna also like, give such, like, respect where this came from. Right. This is a, it sounds like a, a tool, a cultural tool for. It sounds to me like at the heart, please correct me if I'm wrong, like it's kinda like, watch what you do, watch what you say.
This can have real impact on others.
Ali: Yeah. It was initially what I feel in religion. It was, it was bought for a very positive reason and, uh. The, the meaning for it was very nice that okay, [00:42:00] if, if somebody doesn't have a mother, don't praise your mother in front of that child because that child will, will feel, you know, uh, start to miss their mother.
Rachel Duncan: Mm-hmm.
Ali: So if somebody is deprived of something, don't show off your stuff in front of them.
Rachel Duncan: Right.
Ali: if you, if you're gonna do the same thing with your siblings, that's unfair. That is what I feel is unfair.
Rachel Duncan: Right. I, I really appreciate talking about like, okay, the source of this, or aspects of this are really, you know, in, Hey, we wanna help people feel safe. Not only, you know, for that child who might have, you know, lost a parent, like so that they feel safe with me so that they feel
connected. Right.
That's actually, there's a big part of that and it has, you know, like you said, kind of both negative and positive
Ali: Hmm.
Rachel Duncan: and I'm wondering about Yeah, the evil eye and when that comes up for you, like, oh, I can't do that. [00:43:00] I'm not allowed to do that because the evil eye. Because something's trying to protect me.
Ali: But how will that protection go away By not sharing it
Rachel Duncan: Yeah. I
Ali: or I even, I've even seen a few videos where they share, don't share your plans or your successes with the good people because they, um, the, the plans stop. And that's what I also realized that before actually becoming a full fledged business, my abandoned businesses ventures. Had reached a, a place where I started praising about it.
Okay, you know, I did this and these are the products that I've launched and this and that. That's where I started to get the praise. Oh, wow. And I started
Rachel Duncan: Yeah.
Ali: that. So
keeping
Rachel Duncan: think there was a, there was a bit of the evil I turn to you in those moments.
Ali: not actually an evil [00:44:00] eye, but, uh, maybe this is what the religion wanted to tell us that okay, don't count your chickens before they're hatched and don't say too much about your chickens. Uh, so that you know your own interest reduces. Maybe that's the reality.
Rachel Duncan: That is so interesting when there's a stage in business or a lot of these things where well, it has to, you have to let people know about it,
right? Like you can't keep it secret. You can't keep a business secret forever. That's interesting. I'm wondering about this division that keeps coming up between like what we show the world and what's really going on inside.
We all have it at a certain point, right?
Sometimes it's more, you know, black and white than others. I'm wondering for you like honoring the fact that what I show on the outside and what I bring show inside, it's okay, [00:45:00] it's a little different, but I wanna know that like there are times where the outside is a little different than the inside, right?
Ali: Yeah.
Rachel Duncan: But does it always have to be a struggle? Do you know what I mean?
Ali: Hmm. Doesn't have to always be a struggle. There can be a smoother boundary that, that, that's where boundaries come in. I feel we, this subcontinent of Asia, India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, we are not taught boundaries. And, uh, the first people who ramp these boundaries are the parents because they start touching the rights from the children.
You don't have your own authority. You don't have your own space where you keep your stuff and it goes away. And, uh, you later find out that some unmindful caretaker needed it and they took it.
Rachel Duncan: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Ali: And they're completely unapologetic about it as
Rachel Duncan: So you mean kind of like shared property?
Ali: [00:46:00] Yes, Yes,
Rachel Duncan: yes. 'cause there's a couple things happening both. Yours is mine and mine is yours. And we have secrets you don't tell. Like there are boundaries there.
Ali: Oh, you have boundaries. Yeah. And if you, and if you do not respect their boundaries, you are going to get penalized for it for long.
Rachel Duncan: So in the way, that is a form of boundaries. Right? And it's, it's different. Um
Ali: It is like, it's like a cult and the leader of that cult, irrespective right or wrong, you gotta follow him.
Rachel Duncan: Mm. Which for some folks gives, you know, um, some comfort. Oh, there's clarity there. Oh, I just do what he says.
Ali: But
Rachel Duncan: safety and clarity there I'm not saying it's right. I'm just saying that's, that's, that's why those things happen,
Ali: hmm, hmm, hmm.
Rachel Duncan: but not for everyone. It sounds like you have always been a little more of an independent thinker.
Would you say that's true?[00:47:00]
Ali: I do agree, but I have not always had faith on myself and, uh, given my right to make a choice to others where I feel miserably, but now I realize I've gotta take my own choices and I do take my own
Rachel Duncan: You do?
Ali: independent. Yeah.
Rachel Duncan: O you know, you know, do you have, like we, we have these migratory birds, these geese in, in the Americas. Do you have geese in Pakistan? I
Ali: Yeah,
Rachel Duncan: know the flying
Ali: get, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We do
get those,
Rachel Duncan: yeah. You know, they fly in a v and the,
Ali: yeah. When they're flying.
Rachel Duncan: goose, it's like the most work right. To be at the front of the v.
Um, and they trade out, they swap out. 'cause they can't be the head. I'm sure there's a better term for it, but you can't be the head goose all the time because it's exhausting to be the first,
Ali: Okay.
Rachel Duncan: you know? And I'm wondering about that metaphor for you is like. [00:48:00] Being the first is so is, is important, and having some different thoughts and trying new things.
Right? It's also hard to do all the time because it is tiring. It is tiring to make your own map when
you're doing something new. Um, and there might be times where you're, you're the second or third goose, right? And, and, and knowing that it's not always right, that there's like a, a, a dynamic shift. Um, I find this too, right?
There's, uh, I go through a sprint of like putting together a new offer or doing something new, and then whoof, I just need to make, do maintaining for a little while. I think learning our own rhythm with that is really important because I'm wondering about, you know, you get a new idea and it gets, it also gets exhausting, and then you get the praise and you're, it kills it, right? And you back
up and then maybe your second or third goose for a little bit. I don't know.
Ali: Okay. Wow, wow, wow. That it seems like a lot of [00:49:00] chains have just broken.
Rachel Duncan: oh, good. Nothing like a good metaphor sometimes.
Ali: It's, it's a lot of release. I was putting myself under a lot of pressure for being the, the head geese Albatross maybe, and I now realize that it's always shifting. It's just that I'm not observing, I'm just being too mindful of when I'm being put in the spotlight
Rachel Duncan: Mm-hmm.
Ali: What about the times that I am the one who is second in command or the third?
It's not always the driving force that matters. It's the pushing force that matters too.
Rachel Duncan: Yes. And that
like, we can't sprint a marathon. Sometimes. And you know, I think that we talk about like our relationship with money and it, and it sounds like also you have this relationship [00:50:00] with business, with your business.
And
Ali: Hmm.
Rachel Duncan: when people are praising it, would it help to be like they're praising that thing, this business that I am just, I am,
I'm the thing it's flowing through.
It's not me, it's the business. It's that's what they're praising. Not me, but that thing.
Ali: Mm. Wow. Wow.
Rachel Duncan: Would that,
Ali: Hmm. Yeah.
Rachel Duncan: so if we were to continue this
conversation, what I might give you a little bit of homework is
to, is to do a little bit of writing to your business,
Ali: Okay.
Rachel Duncan: to this, you said this little fetus of an idea
Ali: Yeah.
Rachel Duncan: and that you're, you're in relationship with it. It's actually not yours. I don't think ideas are ours.
I think it's a thing. It's like a spirit that wants to exist and it came to you.
Right. What, what do I do next? Little, little baby idea. Um, what do you need [00:51:00] from me? What are you worried about? Right? Like, it's its own thing. And I wonder about separating yourself from the business idea could be very powerful for it to keep changing and staying with it. And when you receive positive feedback that, oh, this project got the
feedback, this little, this creature,
maybe even making some artwork or journaling with it, that you are the steward, you're the steward of this business. It's not you, you're the
steward. Just, and I'm wondering if that protects you from that hyper visibility.
Ali: it just shifts my own perception to see. Yeah. And it does, it already makes me feel powerful that Yeah. It's just the praises are meant to go. So it is going through me.
Rachel Duncan: yeah,
Ali: Uh, but, but there's a lot of shame attached to, you know, I don't know, praise and being seen. Being seen is [00:52:00] actually the word that is coming.
Rachel Duncan: Mm. Being seen and there's a double thing there. Like we want to be seen and oh, we don't look at the same time. Do you feel like it's a little bit of both?
Ali: Yeah. Yeah.
Rachel Duncan: Yeah. To be seen? Well, I might give you a little bit of homework to, to reflect on. Okay. First step is connecting to your business ideas and your business as its own entity.
This its own thing that you are stewarding. And this could be through writing, through making some artwork. I think it's interesting to really look at all of the aspects of being seen, 'cause that's not right or wrong,
but it seems to trigger a danger response for you.
Ali: Yeah.
Rachel Duncan: Yeah,
Which,
and let's, let's honor that.
That makes sense. You know, it sounds like given your culture, it's, it, you're given lots of warnings. It's dangerous. It can be dangerous to be seen.[00:53:00]
Ali: But how do I release that fear? It's, it's, it's an illogical fear that is embedded since childhood.
Rachel Duncan: Well, what I wonder is, is it totally illogical?
Like are there any social consequences of being seen, like real ones?
Ali: that's a good one. I think, I think I, before this conversation, I used to think only women have consequences of being seen because they, uh, had to be covered. The veils and, uh, you know, if they're, uh, are seen by a male, they're supposed to be burned in hell and things like that.
Rachel Duncan: Hmm. But, uh, males don't have such restrictions.
For sure.
Ali: But now that I am seeing there are. Yeah. If you're caught with another woman,
Rachel Duncan: Mm-hmm.
Ali: you're seen with another woman, that is [00:54:00] also not acceptable in an extreme society. Not that Karachi is very extreme. It's not that extreme, but yeah, in a, in a very extreme society that could be, uh, the, the road to being punished.
Rachel Duncan: very unsafe.
Ali: Yeah.
Rachel Duncan: I mean, okay. This is like a very academic question that I don't have the credentials to answer or even get into, but like, do you think men in Pakistan have an invisible hijab? Like,
Ali: Wow. Wow.
Rachel Duncan: You're not wearing one, but
it
seems there.
Ali: Yes. Oh shit. That's what closet people are.
Rachel Duncan: Oh no, we figured it out. You're like, Hey, I talked to this white lady in Denver. Just kidding.
Ali: Wow. Yeah.
Men are also very,
Rachel Duncan: yeah. 'cause you're saying like, oh, I have to show off [00:55:00] my, you know, wealth or what I can do, and that's different from the inside. I, you know, the, the considering the evil eye about what I can and can't do. There's so many rules about what you show versus what's inside, which is so much about, about that sacred divide between the outside and
Ali: I dunno what's sacred about that.
Rachel Duncan: Yeah,
Ali: I don't know. The sacred, it's evil about hiding something.
Rachel Duncan: Yeah. It's really tough. Yeah. I guess, I mean, like, I'm digging back into my, my studies about. How the hijab defines the outside world from the, the home, the inside world, um, and how this plays out in so many like less tangible
ways.
Ali: Wow. That's like a whole ton of things.
Rachel Duncan: I'm like getting hot too. Oh dear.
Ali: Oh my God.[00:56:00]
Rachel Duncan: I mean, it's the masks we wear, we all wear them. And it's
adaptive. Yeah.
Ali: we are all wearing masks. Eventually, at the end of the day, this is the Mask Man Society and who, who are the real people then if you all are wearing masks.
Rachel Duncan: Well, it's all real. It is real. I mean, we all have such real internal experiences. I think it seems like when is it safe for me to connect my interior experience with someone else's interior experience? Like when can that be a safe thing? Maybe it's, you know, it's maybe not safe with all people. Like we all learn that.
Who is it safe with to let a little bit of my insides out, let a, so I, and also let you know so I can see a little bit of their insights. That's like vulnerability and honest, open conversations like we're having right here.
Ali: Yeah. But then, but then do you think everybody deserves [00:57:00] our honesty?
Rachel Duncan: Ooh,
Ali: Being honest?
Rachel Duncan: that's a good question. Because it can be unsafe to be fully honest. Can't it?
Ali: Exactly. Yeah.
Rachel Duncan: Yeah.
Ali: Then how much of, uh, how much of honest do we show out to the world? It's like keeping a complete for their safety, not for ours.
Rachel Duncan: Yeah. I mean, mutual, yeah, it does, it goes both ways. Can I bring it to this conversation? How has it been for you? Just talking with me, having this, you know, talking about your interior experience with me. What's it been like?
Ali: It, I do feel safe with you and, uh, which is why I'm being super vulnerable, although I know you're recording all of this and, um, I don't know. I've shared a lot and I know that you're gonna, you know, do the right things. Whatever [00:58:00] the universe has in for me, it'll come.
Rachel Duncan: Thank you for trusting me with it. I'm gonna take very good care of your stories for sure.
Ali: Thank you. Thank
Rachel Duncan: It can feel like a rush, I think, to have like vulnerable conversations and also, oh yeah, this is what I needed, this having a safe exchange. Um, there's, like you said, I'm so glad you felt like that relief, like a bit of, I'm wondering about your temperature.
How is your temperature right now? You said it was coming
up earlier.
Ali: it's still in the warmth, but it's like a stable, warm, not sweating anymore.
Rachel Duncan: yeah, yeah. Right. Our
nervous system perceives any kind of threat as a physical threat to like, oh no, we're talking about money or whatever. It's gonna be like red alert, and I appreciate you stuck with it and stayed with the conversation and let it let it come down.
Yeah.
Well, I've learned so much, Ali. I, you know, I don't know a lot about Pakistan. I know just a little bit [00:59:00] very academically about Islam and I, I'm gonna, I'm really curious what this conversation has just brought up for me and, um, I'd love to continue learning and, um, yeah. The masks.
Ali: The masks. But, but thank you so very much for all the insight and the change that you just, I, I say it's, it's a release that I actually feel, and I believe it's gonna get. Install in my body once I go to sleep at night
Oh good thats
Rachel Duncan: right. It's evening for you, I hope. Yeah, I hope you sleep really well. Get a little movement in, I think especially when we have big insights. Yeah. It kind of kicks all the dust up and, and gives some time to allow some changes to happen and, and also I just wanna really validate the cultural stuff just doesn't change in the snap of a finger and I don't think we're expecting it to here. Often. They come from a source of safety, almost [01:00:00] always. This is a protective thing and I think noticing it. Noticing, like, when is this a protective thing? When is it not quite serving me? How can I work with it and still feel safe? Um, 'cause that's always gonna be there, so it's probably gonna be some middle ground, you know? Um, and I really wish for your, your safety and also happiness. I mean, we talked about money and we also totally didn't. I think there's so much there. Um, Ali, I have a question that I love asking all my guests at the end of our talks, which is, if you were to picture your money as a creature, what's the first image that comes to your mind
Ali: Ah, creature. I think I've always been inspired by the, the cheshire cat from, uh,
Rachel Duncan: from Alice Wonderland,
Ali: Alice in Wonderland.
Yeah.
Rachel Duncan: Cheshire cat. Okay. Tell me about when you picture the Cheshire cat as your money, what's it like?
Ali: I don't know. It's, it's [01:01:00] completely black. The background is black, the cat is black, but only when it opens its eyes, the twinkle, it's like so bright that you gotta wear glasses to actually witness those, you know, glares. Yeah.
Rachel Duncan: Wow. And what's the personality like?
Ali: Ah, it's, it looks scary yet. It is. It's like a seductress, you know, something that is charming, beautiful, yet looks a little, uh, scary.
Rachel Duncan: I'm not sure. Again, like these layers, right? Not feeling one way about it. Like there's something very approachable and a little wary, it sounds like. Yeah.
Ali: Maybe I've been wired that way since childhood, or that okay, you want it and you don't. So I don't know if I can actually separate this dichotomy or even if I can't [01:02:00] separate it. Just having an understanding that it is gonna be coming in both
Rachel Duncan: I think already when we notice the dichotomy, then already a third way comes about, you know, that it's not one or the other or none of it. There's maybe a third way. And when we notice, oh, I'm getting this push pull with money, how do I want to be? Maybe it's something different entirely that doesn't have to do with pushing and pulling.
Ali: Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Actually I have always liked that state where I don't have to, you know, uh, it's just that my presence, um, and my being there is a lot. And, uh, the counting money business I run away from, I'm like, okay, that's your job. Please do it. I
don't
Rachel Duncan: doesn't have to be your job, you know, I think
it think your journey as a leader is gonna be really interesting one, and I wanna hear about it about, you know, when you're the goose at the head of the V and [01:03:00] when you're not, and. Where your strengths really shine, which seems to be in innovation and when just being honest about things that aren't your strengths, and it doesn't mean the whole thing has to fold. Um, and I, I, I hope for you and I'll send you some resources of maybe some business communities of really like a very compassionate, more like emotionally informed kind of place with other entrepreneurs who are in such a similar journey. I think you might find that very useful to help this not all be on an inside thing.
Um,
Ali: great.
Rachel Duncan: yeah. I will do. I think we all need that. Ali, thank you so much for letting me pick your brain and as having, um, this incredible conversation
and, um, I really appreciate being here.
Ali: it, it was all my pleasure. Thank you so very much, Rachel for your time and, uh, finding my brain worthy to be picked up.
Rachel Duncan: Totally. Absolutely. Thank you.
Ali: Thank you.
[01:04:00]
Rachel Duncan: Thanks for listening to the Money Healing Club podcast. Here's the funny thing about podcasts. They are surprisingly hard to find, but once you find one that really speaks to you, you're totally in.
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You also may find a new layer opens up in your relationships. So thank you for sharing the podcast, and we are always [01:05:00] looking for new listener questions and stories to feature on an upcoming episode. Go on over to moneyhealingclub.com/podcast and there's a big orange button where you can record your story.
Your question right there from your phone or browser, I wanna hear it. And if you're looking to get more support on your money journey, there's lots of other financial therapy, goodness at moneyhealingclub.com. From group programs to courses, to lots of other ways you can work with me.
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