S3 E59: 💵 Divorce Is More Than Splitting Assets with Joshua Dunlop
This podcast is for educational purposes only and does not constitute mental health, financial, tax, or legal advice.
Episode Summary
Divorce isn’t just about splitting assets. It’s about navigating grief, and the that comes with starting over.
Certified Financial Planner and divorce financial specialist Joshua Dunlop joins Rachel Duncan on this episode of the Money Healing Club podcast to explore how emotions influence financial decisions during divorce. From the attachment to keeping the family home to money dysmorphia and overlooked financial responsibilities, they discuss what it takes to rebuild financial security and confidence after a major life transition.
💬 “And the biggest issue comes when it’s not feasible to keep the house. And if it’s not feasible to keep the house, it’s not going to give you safety.” — Joshua Dunlop
In this episode:
Why emotional safety influences financial decisions during divorce.
When keeping the family home can threaten financial security.
How financial fear can distort your perception of money.
Common financial mistakes to avoid after divorce.
Finding confidence and independence after a major life transition.
⏰ Episode Breakdown
05:23 | The Financial Side of Divorce Why legal and financial considerations aren’t always the same.
08:52 | Making Decisions During Emotional Overwhelm Identifying priorities and non-negotiables.
16:53 | The Emotional Attachment to Keeping the House When familiarity and financial security conflict.
21:03 | Money Dysmorphia and Financial Fear How emotions shape our financial reality.
24:29 | Financial Mistakes to Avoid After Divorce Budgeting, beneficiaries, debt, and retirement accounts.
28:53 | Finding Support Through Financial Transitions The value of compassionate financial guidance.
Connect with Joshua Dunlop:
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🎧 Your next listen
💸 Confessions of a Bankrupt Dreamer: The Emotional Side of Bankruptcy with Robin Finney
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Joshua Dunlop (00:00)
So often one party wants to keep the house. And more often than not, I've experienced that wanting to keep the house is either the bargaining stage of grief. You want some part of the status quo to remain. Or it's about safety. You only feel safe within the house.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (00:23)
Welcome to the Money Healing Club Podcast. I'm your host, Rachel Duncan. I'm a certified financial therapist and art therapist, and I think you've come to the softest place to land in personal finance. Just a note, this podcast is educational in nature. It does not replace mental health care or legal or financial advice, which is really important in this particular episode. So this month in the podcast, we have been getting into
Really kind of legal topics that can be majorly emotional are actually pretty common and can have a stigma and a weight to them. So I do feel like it's my job to carve out space for the emotional experience tied to them. So the previous episode was about bankruptcy with Robin Finney. The one before that was about estate planning with Lauren Klein. And this one is about drum roll please divorce with Josh Dunlop.
Who I'll introduce to you in a minute. I encourage you to listen to those two previous episodes. I think you'll learn a lot about some of these legal things and feel maybe a little bit more comfortable with the topics. So I want you to take a breath with me. Think back to a big transition you had, maybe one that involves some loss. Maybe it was a move, a breakup, a death in the family, a job ending. When we're losing something important, it's understandable that you want to hold on.
To something really tightly, like a life raft. I know when I have gone through some major losses in my life, I find myself really digging into nesting, into home projects and these little routines that ground me. So that grip makes so much sense. When big things around us are changing, we reach for something familiar so that we can feel safe always. When we talk about money, all roads lead to safety. I say that again and again. When we talk about money,
We're really talking about safety. So so often that familiar thing that we hold on to is tied to money, like the house, that bank account, the pets, the kids. There are financial aspects of all of these. And it reminds us, though, of how things were before the changes happened.
In a divorce, that longing can sometimes quietly steer some of the biggest financial decisions in a person's life because they're trying to hold on to safety and normalcy. So, how do emotions factor into money decisions during a transition like divorce? And what does the financial side of financial therapy actually look like? To help us venture into this experience, I've brought the one and only my colleague and friend, Josh Dunlop, to talk about it.
Josh is a certified financial planner and a certified divorce financial analyst. And he's currently studying to become a certified financial therapist like me. He's based in Denver, but helps clients nationwide. He is my go-to referral when divorce and other major life transitions come across my desk that have pretty big financial implications. Josh spent 14 years in the wealth management industry where he noticed that financial planning was so often tied to selling products.
He believed that people going through rough times deserve more options. So he founded Even Path. It's a planning firm that doesn't manage assets or sell products. It is fee-only. The only money he makes is what people pay him to help them. Very, very honest guy. His work sits at the intersection of money and emotion. He works mostly with people going through divorce, retirement, and other identity-challenging life transitions.
He was also recently named member of the year by the Financial Therapy Association, which I embarrass him about in this conversation.
Josh lives here in Denver with his wife Katherine, who's a former attorney who now works with him at Even Path. She guides people who are representing themselves through the legal steps of divorce, and she also helps with other procedural legal aspects of a divorce. You can find more about their work at evenpathway.com. Josh and I, in this conversation, talk about why the home so often feels like safety, but why keeping it isn't always the safe choice financially, and it's such a difficult one
We talk about how lawyers aren't experts in the financial process of divorce. Not always. We get into what money dysmorphia is. and the essential bits of financial housekeeping that trips people up in the first year after a divorce, something he has come to specialize in. We talk about why Josh calls himself a financial guide rather than a planner. Because even when the path looks different than you imagined,
All roads still lead to safety. when you have a good guide by your side. So let's talk about the things we don't usually say when we talk about money and divorce with Josh Dunlop.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (05:23)
Welcome to the Money Healing Club podcast, Josh. I'm so glad you're here.
Joshua Dunlop (05:26)
I'm so glad to be here. Thank you for having me.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (05:30)
Okay, so you're here because you are my you're my go-to guy, you're my go-to referral when anyone comes across my desk who is contemplating divorce, going through starting to go through a divorce, or if divorce is part of their picture. it's not something I specialize in. And I'm like, you gotta talk to Josh. So and and you come at this from a certified financial planner standpoint as well as specializing
in divorce itself, the financial aspects of divorce. So I'm curious, you know, just tell us a little bit about then how how are you working with someone when there's it's such a huge life transition that is emotional and majorly financial.
Joshua Dunlop (06:09)
Yeah, so first I think a really good place to start with is what a certified divorce financial analyst, which is one of the designations I have, does. You know, we look through decrees in order to find financial oversights. My apologies. Yes, so a divorce decree
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (06:25)
Can you tell us what a decree is? I just don't know. Let's back it up.
Joshua Dunlop (06:31)
is the final document in a divorce that basically divorces you. It also sets out
All of the financial things that are going to have to happen? Is the house going to have to be sold? Are the retirement accounts going to have to be split up? So a lot of times those decrees are written purely from a legal standpoint and there's not a lot of financial consideration to be had. We come in and we put that financial consideration there. We're also going to be able to identify issues and a potential split, you know, when you're splitting the assets.
And I also like to do a lot of financial planning when it comes to what that split is going to look like after the divorce.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (07:14)
Gotcha. And Josh,
a g are you working with one party in the divorce or both of them?
Joshua Dunlop (07:18)
I am most often
working with one party. Now there are instances where I can get into a collaborative situation where everybody has kind of one party. but that's more rare. more often
than not, I'm working with one person. And so that's a lot of the hardlined financial stuff that gets done by a lot of CDFAs. And what I would say is handling both the emotional side and the financial side of it all comes down to the
To seeing people and creating a safe space for them. So you see them obviously through their financial statements, but you have to take that extra step to to kind of not just see that they're going to have those emotions, but expect that they're going to have those emotions and to be able to speak to those emotions, how common they are, how people get past them, being able to speak to those things is such an important, I think, companion.
to those financial pieces because so often they dovetail into each other.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (08:23)
Right. And if I would imagine someone, you know, going through this and and talking with you and maybe, you know, the overwhelm of the financial implications, the overwhelm of this life transition. and when we're overwhelmed, we don't tend to you know, necessarily make the best decisions for ourselves. We're, you know, when we're overwhelmed, we can only think about the present moment safety. And I think what you bring this this emphasis on emotional safety through the process, I would I would bet improves the process for for your clients.
Joshua Dunlop (08:52)
Yeah,
one of the one of the theories that I had going in was that people make better decisions from a place of confidence, as as you just alluded to. And I've been finding that again and again. one of the things I do is called the Advocate Workbook. And it's a two-part workbook. The first part though is just figuring out what's the most important things to them. What are your non-negotiables? What do you want to get out of all of this? What do you want to survive this?
Right. And that's so important because so often divorce is like a frog in boiling water where you're just slowly going to sleep and becoming numb to the things around you. And so often if you have something, especially towards the beginning of a divorce, that just lays out, Hey, this is where I want this to go. It might not go that way, but it helps you keep that North Star so that you don't get lost.
along the way. And so doing things like that and and and again, not just knowing that there's going to be emotions and just kind of glossing over those, but really diving into them and exploring how those emotions change what the best course of action for you is.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (10:10)
Yeah. And I want to highlight, just because I know you that, you know, we met because we're both part of the Financial Therapy Association, but we're also representing the two camps. And what's kind of cool about financial therapy is I don't know, I don't know what the split is, but you know, it's a pretty even split of folks coming from the mental health world and people coming from the financial world. And we're coming over coming to this because of this Venn diagram. We all acknowledge that the emotions with money need to be in the room and worked with.
And then we just have different, you know, specialties on either side. So I just want to highlight this that like that's how we met. And I know that like you really, you really have a knack for it, even though you didn't come from that particular training. And I'm I'm just wondering. also, I need to speak your praises, because you won an award at the last conference, by the way, Josh. Yeah.
Joshua Dunlop (10:59)
I did. thank you, yes.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (11:02)
I don't think anybody knows about this. I think Josh
Joshua Dunlop (11:04)
Yeah.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (11:05)
got member of the year of the Financial Therapy Association.
Joshua Dunlop (11:08)
Yeah, it it was a really, really fantastic honor. there's a lot of great stuff that's been happening from a community standpoint for the Financial Therapy Association. And we're growing in membership, which is the most exciting thing. So thank you.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (11:24)
Yeah, and you're a big part of that. So I just wanted to
sidebar that. But how do you think? I mean, I'm just I'd love to ask you just personally, you know, I think you really have a knack for this. For I mean, obviously you have a capacity for talking about complex financial stuff, but because your academic training is not in necessarily in holding the emotions, where do you think you got those skills?
Joshua Dunlop (11:47)
when I was growing up, I was just I I was told to be a good listener and I just took that to heart. And the more I listened, the more I found that people were willing to talk to me. And the more people talked to me, the more I found that it built relationships, that it built friendships, that it made things so much better.
So the more I I listened, the more I found that it was creating these relationships. And people are just really interested in talking about the types of things that really move them. And so much conversation is so superficial that having those deep conversations kind of became a skill for me.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (12:27)
Yeah. Okay. So it came from kind of like it sounds it sounds your family that that was an important skill. And
then it got reinforced in adult life. I mean, you know, that's what I found in what one of the first classes we every counselor takes is counseling communication. And it is how do you sit and say nothing and let the person know you're really listening? So whole course is on that. And while it sounds so simple, it's not, you know. you know, especially if
You know, it's like, me too, or let me tell the story. It's like, you don't do any of that. You're just how do you center the speaker wholly and let them know that that they're they're the whole thing and that you're completely understanding them. And it was like such a deep practice. And I remember after even taking that class, like, this it should just be required for all humans. Like, why are only counselors getting this? And it sounds like you kind of got it in a more informal way of like.
This will really deepen your relationships.
Joshua Dunlop (13:27)
And one thing I want to mention is that, you know, I a question that I get often is how is it that you take these emotions on without crossing that barrier into being a therapist, right? And to being
Joshua Dunlop (13:42)
I figured out what happened.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (13:43)
Okay.
So we say hi Sydney Sydney, my editor. Thanks for editing that.
Joshua Dunlop (13:45)
Hi, Sydney. Thank you for yes,
thank you for editing this and making it it's seamless.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (13:51)
Yes,
she will. Okay. however I lost the thread. We were talking about
Joshua Dunlop (13:57)
We were we had just
talked about how I had received those skills kind of in a more informal setting. And
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (14:02)
Yeah. Yeah, okay. Yeah, go ahead and pick that up.
Joshua Dunlop (14:05)
Yeah, so one thing that a lot of people ask me is how is it that you take these emotions on without crossing that extra threshold into becoming a therapist, right? Which I'm not. I'm not a a a formally trained therapist. And so how do you stop from crossing over into that?
And the thing I like to tell them is there's a huge difference between acknowledging and and and looking at a trauma or a a strong emotion and actually working through it. My goal is not to work you through your trauma. My goal is not to make you 100% emotionally okay with the divorce. My goal is to take your emotions, acknowledge them.
And see how it is that they impact the decisions that you're going to make.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (14:57)
Think there's a lot of I appreciate everyone's concern of like I'm not a therapist, but it's like, well, but everyone's emotional. Like, like, number one, you're not claiming you're a therapist. That's
Joshua Dunlop (15:03)
Yeah. Right.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (15:05)
like the biggest one. Number two, we're not diagnosing, right? Those
Joshua Dunlop (15:07)
Right.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (15:08)
are the big things that like cross that technical boundary. but gosh, I mean, I've had some of the biggest breakthroughs with coaches, you know, with my hairstylist. Like, I think we have like intimate relationships with professionals, with friends all the time.
That are, you know, even just being acknowledged, oof, it does 90% of the work. And and I'm not diminishing the work of therapists because there's a lot more to it. but we all can hold space for each other and be like, God, that's really hard. Or I see that's really sad for you. I don't see why, you know, that I don't think that there's a barrier to having deep compassion for for other people.
Joshua Dunlop (15:53)
Yeah, I agree. And I have a friend Thomas Haladner, who always says awareness is wellness. And
to a point being aware of the emotion and being intentional around it, like you said, that's ninety percent of the struggle sometimes.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (16:11)
Yeah.
And it's ninety percent of the like the relief. Like, I'm you know, going through this huge thing. There's all this financial stuff that maybe feels beyond me, or you know, there's all sorts of like I didn't know what a decree is, you know.
Joshua Dunlop (16:23)
Yeah.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (16:24)
Like right, it's like there's so much that I don't I maybe don't understand or I'm in a place of powerlessness. And to have someone who isn't just gonna be like, Well, let's just look at the spreadsheet, but be like, I bet.
I understand that you're angry or whatever it is, I'm just sort of guessing, you
Joshua Dunlop (16:38)
Yeah, yeah.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (16:39)
know, the kinds of things, the kind of pretty basic reflection that like you're a human in this process, even though there's judges and lawyers and blah blah blah blah, like still seeing the human in in that, in the divorce process or any big life transition.
Joshua Dunlop (16:53)
Yeah.
I'll give you a really, really common example that I run into where emotion and and finance intersect. And that is with the house. So often one party wants to keep the house. And more often than not, I've experienced that wanting to keep the house is either the bargaining stage of grief. You want some part of the status quo to remain. Or it's about safety. You only feel safe within the house.
And the biggest issue comes when it's not feasible to keep the house. And if it's not feasible to keep the house, it's not going to give you safety.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (17:34)
gonna be the opposite.
Joshua Dunlop (17:35)
It's going to be the opposite. and
you're not going to want to stake your future on that bargain. It's so
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (17:41)
Right, but understanding the psychology is like so much is changing. I can understand that you want to keep this one thing the same, right? How human is that? Yeah.
Joshua Dunlop (17:49)
human and it's it's so vulnerable. It's such a vulnerable position to be in that really acknowledging what that emotion is, where it's coming from, is it the bargaining side?
Is there a part of this status quo that you don't want to leave? Or is it purely the safety? You know, digging into that just a little bit, acknowledging what it looks like, and then really almost ceremoniously kind of grieving that aspect if we can't keep the house, you know, grieving that too, and experiencing that that's okay to grieve that.
That type of hand holding I think is so important and the lack of that hand holding is why I think we see so many people that get years beyond a divorce and never get past the bitterness.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (18:42)
It's got that the claws in them. I mean, in this way, it's sort of the structural trauma of, you know, the hallmarks of trauma are our helplessness and going through that experience of helplessness and and it not being seen. And, you know, I could imagine I have not gone through a divorce myself, but like, well, where am I gonna grieve then if I don't have my house? And I, you know, that would be such an important part of this conversation about okay, we're still gonna look forward and still.
get you in a place where you are gonna be safe financially safe is important because all money talk, all roads lead to safety when we talk about money. But but being in a place where you're financially safe and you have a place to be, it might not be as familiar as your home, but actually it's gonna be more financially safe for you.
Joshua Dunlop (19:27)
Right. And being able
to to show them that in sometimes in spreadsheets if if they're open to that,
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (19:33)
Mm-hmm.
Joshua Dunlop (19:33)
but other times through more creative means, and really making them see it and understand it, that can sometimes do all the work. You know, sometimes when people
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (19:45)
Yeah.
Joshua Dunlop (19:46)
see, it's not gonna be safe for me to stay in my home, in fact, it's gonna be safe for me to be in an apartment for two years while I while I, you know, look for another place or et cetera, et cetera.
and if there's anybody out there that's listening that's that's that's having this this experience where they they're thinking they have to get rid of the house that they want to keep, I will just let them know that I've not ever seen it where they've landed someplace else and it's been terrible. People find safety in all sorts of places and all sorts of ways. And so even though it's not the most immediately familiar, it can become intimately familiar very quickly.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (20:27)
Totally right. It's like I think we get we get very attached to our things, right? And we search for stability when there isn't other. And I think getting to the root of it is, well, what we're really wanting is safety and we can find that in in another place. And it's hard. And we're gonna grieve that house, you know? And you know, maybe we'll take lots of pictures of that house and you know, I would imagine a whole kind of grief and transition process, you know, when that's the case. Yeah.
Joshua Dunlop (20:51)
Yeah. Yeah.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (20:54)
So okay, house that's a huge one.
what are some other big themes that come up with with divorce with financial components that you help people with?
Joshua Dunlop (21:03)
Yeah. I've heard it referred to as both money dysmorphia and wallet dysmorphia. but most often I see a situation where somebody feels really negatively about every aspect of their life. So they feel negatively about their finances. And I don't know quite what it is, but the finances seem to be where everything it seems to be the the where everything comes out in the wash, kind of the scapegoat for everything.
If somebody's feeling vulnerable and helpless and a part of their life, they're most likely going to revert back to that financial side and want to do something on the financial side.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (21:44)
Well,
I'm actually curious about this term, you know, money dysmorphia, because, you know, it's a kind of a clinical term. It's like, so are you seeing like people saying, I have no money and actually they do, or vice versa, or I can go live at large and they don't have it, like where their concept of their options is a mismatch with their financial reality in kind of a heightened way. Is that is that what mean? Yeah.
Joshua Dunlop (22:07)
Yes, that's absolutely
what I mean. And yes, it's
Joshua Dunlop (22:11)
Often than not, what I'm finding is that people feel negatively about their financial situation as you said, I don't have any money, but it turns out that I do, right? The big problem with that is that you make so many decisions from a place of scarcity. And sometimes I've met people, again, you'd spend years from the divorce, they have money, they're in a financially good position, but just financially they can't wrap their heads around being okay because there's so much pain inside.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (22:39)
Right, where I feel in unsafe inside, so I'm gonna, you know, project that as it were
Joshua Dunlop (22:42)
Right. Right.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (22:44)
onto the money or I'm doing it alone now. And that wasn't that wasn't what I had bargained for for so long.
Joshua Dunlop (22:50)
Yeah. And it's scary place for people to be in. But I think that having a financial planner, however you have them, however you you you get that person to guide you through the finances, I think that that can be a real I I hesitate to say cure, but that can be a real treatment, I think, for that type of money dysmorphia is this constantly going through and showing them this is what you have and this is what it can do.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (23:16)
Right. And I think also like, yeah, it is gonna look different than maybe you had thought it would, right? When you had when you were married. And there's still like so many options. I I would imagine, you know, I think, you know, you go through like early stages of adulthood, like really with this concrete vision, and then things change and it's like you're kind of like, well, then it's all gone. It's like, well, no, you actually have different options because that's what money can give us is is options. And yes, you're safe, and yes, this might look differently. And and having that reminder.
you know, think it's so important. So it sounds like, you you're helping people in the more immediate divorce process, but also the like much longer arc of like the divorce recovery process.
Joshua Dunlop (23:57)
Yeah. My my two biggest contracts that I do for people is a mediation engagement where I'm helping them through that part of the divorce. And then after the final decree, I do a program that lasts an entire year after that to help people not make those mistakes that are so common in that first year after a divorce.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (24:20)
Mm.
What can you name name some specifics? I mean, without you know, I I don't mean to like
break confidentiality, but like what are some themes? What are those mistakes that first year after a divorce you see?
Joshua Dunlop (24:29)
Yeah,
absolutely. to begin with, simply is budgeting, right? People will either go way too on the emotional spend route, or they'll tighten the belt way too much and they won't spend anything and it will make them absolutely miserable. either way is going to set them up for a a a failure. And so being able I always treat budget like
previous budgets, you know, like the last three months worth of budget, I always treat that like it's blood work. It's nothing that we're gonna judge you for. It's nothing that we're gonna, you know, go through line by line, but it is gonna tell us, hey, how are you spending? And it's gonna help us model that into the future. insurance is another really big one. people will often leave the beneficiaries of insurance as their ex-spouse without realizing it.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (25:19)
Right, because the divorce doesn't change that legally. I have recently learned that too.
Joshua Dunlop (25:24)
And the other thing that divorce doesn't change or decree cannot change is the name on a debt. So a lot of times
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (25:33)
right.
Joshua Dunlop (25:34)
somebody will come out of a divorce with a debt that's in their name that somebody else has to pay for. And then that person just is like, Well, I'm not paying it. And how do you get past that, right? How do you and so there are so many
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (25:49)
Right. When it's r
getting reported to agencies and that's your credit score
Joshua Dunlop (25:53)
right? Like and and so
you have to have ways to kind of budget these things in. your retirement accounts a lot of times are gonna be the beneficiary designated is gonna be the ex. And so there's just so many things that you're going to change. and you're already overwhelmed, right? Yeah. Yeah.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (26:12)
Right. You already don't want to think about that person, probably, or whatever it is. Yeah.
Joshua Dunlop (26:18)
And so
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (26:18)
Yeah.
Joshua Dunlop (26:18)
it's it's it's one of those things where just having somebody who's been through it with a lot of people. And also, you know, a lot of times I'll meet with people weekly in that first month after a divorce. And people will sometimes ask me, Well, why what are talking about? And then they go through that first month after a divorce and there's so much that they're freaked out about all the time and they get it. Yeah.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (26:41)
They're like, I get it.
Yeah, yeah. And then is it sort of like a monthly thing after that for the year? Yeah.
Joshua Dunlop (26:46)
Yeah. Yeah. It goes weekly
for a little while and then it goes like every twice a month to every month after
that.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (26:52)
That's sounds so supportive also. Like there's some there's some important housekeeping that needs to happen and that you're gonna remind that person, you know, so that doesn't get into a pile of avoidance because some of these it's truly just a few clicks of a button. Not saying that's easy, but like that will save so much heartache and headache down the road. Yeah.
Joshua Dunlop (27:12)
Absolutely.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (27:13)
Yeah. And I don't think a divorced lawyer or a judge is gonna necessarily inform clients of those things.
Joshua Dunlop (27:18)
No, and so often we we see judges and lawyers as experts and they are experts in legal matters, but so often they're not in financial matters. and and that's another thing. There's something that separates a retirement account called a QDRO, a QDRO or a quadro, I've heard it referred to as both. But the thing is is that it's a legal document that goes to a financial institution. And so the financial institution has
all of these rules that are in place about how these documents have to look to the point where even a a a big group like para, like the like the teachers unions and things like that,
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (27:59)
Mm.
Joshua Dunlop (28:01)
the the the the quadro splits it and it's so it's a financial
but the lawyers don't know what those financial things are. They don't know what those rules
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (28:08)
Mm.
Joshua Dunlop (28:08)
are. So so often someone will submit their quadro to the financial institution and it'll get rejected even though it was approved by a judge, because the judge isn't the final arbiter of that, it's the financial institution.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (28:22)
Interesting. So you would help someone with that kind of that part of the mess. Wow.
Joshua Dunlop (28:25)
Yeah, yeah, with that kind of yeah.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (28:27)
That's like, yeah, that really is a specialty. And all the while, right, checking in with being with them and being a companion. I mean, you're I think for we could say, you're bridging two worlds, but I think you and I are similar in that it's all one world. Like it actually doesn't feel like a bridge. It's like sure I might have some like special, you know, training and understanding, but this all feels like one. I don't feel like this is like two different things. It's all
one process of helping someone through this this difficult time.
Joshua Dunlop (28:53)
Yeah. why
I like to call myself a financial guide as opposed to a financial planner is because, you know, you really just do need somebody to just kinda guide you through it, like it's the Amazon.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (29:03)
Yeah, I like that too. That's I honestly, that's actually also how I view myself as a therapist. Like, not a guide like I'm leading. I have this like kind of very developed visual metaphor that like my client and I are in a rainstorm. I happen to have a raincoat on because, you know, I've been here before. I have some of the tools. I have a raincoat. I have a lantern. And they don't.
And I'm not gonna give it to them, but we're gonna be there together and we're gonna walk this path and I'm gonna have a light and we're gonna walk this path so that they can get their own raincoat and get their lantern, but I'm with them the whole way. And right, it's not saving, it's not bailing out, but it's this very much I'm I'm I'm with you until we get that raincoat and and find the other tools. And I don't know if that metaphor works for you, but that that, you know, it's not a guide like, well, here we're going here first, and then we're going there
Next, like it's sort of this companionship through the the storm,
Joshua Dunlop (30:02)
Yeah, I really
like that metaphor a lot. My engagements are always for a limited time, unlike a lot of financial planners who it's kind of a lifetime thing. and the reason I do that is because I don't want people to become dependent on me. so the longest engagement I'll typically allow is about two years. And at that point I'm hoping that I've given you, as you said, the raincoat and the lantern and helped you find them and and helped you use them.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (30:30)
Yeah, that's that's beautiful. I think that's really fair to point out, like, yeah, they're just having that kind of fiduciary responsibility. Cause I know you've gone through different versions of your business where you're not doing the planning like a lot of planners do with assets under management. And you're doing this much more in an advisory consultant standpoint, than necessarily you're not managing people's money. I mean, do I have that right?
Joshua Dunlop (30:54)
No, you absolutely have that right.
I have no products, I have no commissions, no anything. one hundred percent of the money that I make is the money that people pay me to help them.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (31:05)
Yeah. Which is so honest and fair. Could we s like take a little side thing because we do know each other personally, but Josh and I both live in Denver. we hang out, guys. you have a wonderful partner in your business. I wonder if you could tell us just what this is like having your wife on your staff.
Joshua Dunlop (31:23)
Yeah, so earlier this year my wife left her very high powered job as a contracts attorney and general counsel, assistant general counsel for a large tech firm. And she decided that she was going to come work with me guiding people through the legal process when it comes to divorces. Now she doesn't represent people, but there are things called pro se clinics that most states run where if you are
representing yourself or you can't afford an attorney, you go to these and they help kind of guide you through the process. What she does is like a personalized pro se clinic, one that's individual for each person. And we have successfully guided people through their divorces on a pro se matter where they were doing everything, right? They were representing themselves, but they understood the steps of the process because Catherine, my my spouse, was there to do that.
For them.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (32:21)
That's so cool as an option. I think a lot of folks get really intimidated about the cost of divorce with lawyers and things like that. And sometimes I know that that's warranted depending on the complexity of the situation. But I think it's so cool that like you you guys are offering another path that can be quite, I'm sure, quite a cost savings compared to lawyer and maybe a copacetic one.
Joshua Dunlop (32:41)
Yeah, absolutely. And at the end of the day, you know, there are so many options beyond just lawyers and and even beyond me that people can choose. things have changed in the divorce world in the last twenty-five years so significantly. There's now people who are specialized real estate agents in divorce, certified lenders who are specialized in divorce. there's such a strong
financial support system out there that people just don't realize.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (33:13)
I think it's important to look for those people who specialize in it because I think that, you know, I'm very curious about professionals' bias and whether we you know, we all have bias, like you cannot be unbiased. But, you know, to go to someone who hasn't specialized this, they might have their own baggage about divorce. Maybe they went through one or they've never gone through one, or they may have, you know, certain moral, religious stuff about it. And it's gonna come up and maybe impact and not being able to serve the client. And I think it's so
Yeah, I think that's so important that there are there are specialists in this. I know a forensic accountant who specializes in divorce, right? Like there are specialists in this process who've also like you wouldn't be doing this work if you hadn't like cleared out some of your bias about it, right? Like judgment about someone going through a divorce and all the messy stuff that could come up with that. And I think that's like a really important message to put out there. So it sounds like so you can work with people anywhere? Or is it it's not limited to the
Joshua Dunlop (34:07)
Yes. It's
not limited now. so I can
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (34:09)
Yeah.
Joshua Dunlop (34:12)
I have a lot of clients in California, a few in New York. a lot in Colorado now when it comes to guiding you through the process of divorce, I would say that we have more of a speciality in Colorado divorces. but when it comes to the finance stuff, anywhere in the country, same expertise across the board.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (34:32)
Gotcha. And so if someone wants to reach out to you, how would they find you?
Joshua Dunlop (34:36)
evenpathway.com is a great way to f to to get to know a little bit more about what I do. And there's a contact form there, or they can always just email josh@evenpathway.com.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (34:50)
I'll put all of that in the show notes. I really encourage anyone who is any in any step of this. Also, you don't only do divorce, you do other big life transitions, even though that's what we focused on today. So Josh is my go-to referral for all of that stuff that I can't do. so Josh, I love closing our talks with a question I ask all my guests. And I encourage you to go with your first intuitive hit if you're open to that. If you were to take breath and imagine your money as a creature.
Real or imagined, what's the first hit that comes to mind?
Joshua Dunlop (35:25)
a green bird.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (35:27)
Green bird. Yeah. Could you say more about what what is that green bird up to? How does it come to you?
Joshua Dunlop (35:33)
it is taking off.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (35:38)
We're all
sitting with the metaphor here. Everyone's everyone's picturing it.
Joshua Dunlop (35:44)
I think when I'm when I'm looking at that burden, I'm kinda thinking about it. I'm thinking it's saying go.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (35:54)
Go. That's what's speaking to you.
Joshua Dunlop (35:55)
It's it's yeah.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (35:57)
Yeah. That's always my next my next question is what what is this creature wanting to tell you?
Joshua Dunlop (36:03)
Yeah.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (36:04)
What wisdom is it letting you know?
Joshua Dunlop (36:06)
And I think the idea of of of going, especially when it comes to a life transition, especially when it comes to your money is is really important.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (36:15)
Yeah. Yeah. You can keep moving. Yeah. That's beautiful. Well, Josh, I'm so glad to have you on the podcast also because I think you have the best voice out there. I've always told you, it's like, are you a jazz DJ too? I I love having your voice and your presence here and your expertise is really, really helping the world. So everyone reach out to Josh at evenpathway.com and thanks for being on the podcast.
Joshua Dunlop (36:41)
Thank
you so much, Rachel.
Rachel Duncan (36:47)
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