S3 E57: 🗝️ What You Get Wrong About Estate Planning with Lauren Klein
This podcast is for educational purposes only and does not constitute mental health, financial, tax, or legal advice.
Episode Summary
This week Rachel talks with estate planning attorney Lauren Klein, who wants to bust the misconceptions around estate planning and give you a simpler truth: if you have a body, you have an estate.
You'll hear why a will alone won't spare your family probate, the half-hour task that protects the people you love, and how the great wealth transfer is putting more money in women's hands than ever before. A warm, myth-busting conversation on the Money Healing Club podcast about estate planning as an act of love, and an extension of your own financial health.
💬 "You are giving your family a very big gift." Lauren Klein
In this episode:
Why estate planning has nothing to do with being rich
The half-hour task that protects your family: naming beneficiaries on every account
Why a will alone won't spare your family probate
How the great wealth transfer makes financial literacy non-optional, especially for women
⏰ Episode Breakdown
04:12 | Who actually needs an estate plan | Busting the biggest myth, that it's about wealth, when really if you have a body you have an estate
07:27 | Why a will isn't enough | What probate actually is, and why it's slow, costly, and public
25:26 | Trusts, kids, and values | Protecting minor children, and building the values you want to pass on into what they inherit
36:20 | The great wealth transfer | Trillions moving to younger generations, why women's financial literacy matters now, and the rising cost of aging
📚 Resources and links
Lauren Klein is an estate planning attorney and the founder of Flourish Law Group, a boutique tax, trust, and estates firm. She has a gift for taking a heavy, easily avoided topic and making it feel approachable, and even a little exciting.
Connect with Lauren Klein:
Flourish Law Group (licensed in Florida, with referrals nationwide)
Instagram: @lawyerlaurenklein
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Full transcript: https://www.moneyhealingclub.com/podcast
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Lauren Klein, Esq., LL.M. (00:00)
Absolutely. The reality is if you are eighteen and over and you have a body and you are a human, you need something. You need something in place. Even if you don't have a dollar to your name,
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (00:15)
Welcome to the Money Healing Club Podcast. I'm your host, Rachel Duncan. I'm a certified financial therapist and art therapist, and you've come to the softest place to land in personal finance. Just a note, this podcast is educational in nature. It doesn't replace mental health care or legal or financial advice.
Quick content warning for today's episode. This episode includes a personal story about my mother's death, including hospital experiences and end-of-life medical decisions. There's nothing graphic, but if that's a heavy thing for you today, please take care of yourself. Feel free to check out another episode. We have so many good ones. Okay. I want you to take a moment with me and notice what comes up for you when I say the words, estate documents.
What comes to mind? I mean, for me for a long time, maybe for you too, you know, the word estate meant like a big house on a hill with a gate and tennis courts and a manicured lawn and horses, right? Definitely not my own life. But the word also makes me think of estate sale, which is one of my favorite forms of thrifting. I definitely was not thinking about an estate being.
A simple old checking account, your job, pile of debt, coupons, kids, dog, two fluffy cats. But here's the thing: if you are listening to this, if you are 18 or over, if you have a body, if you're a human being, you have an estate. You have an estate. You probably need estate documents in place a lot sooner than you think. It's not just for the rich and famous.
And I'll get personal for a second. And I share this story with Lauren later on. When my mom passed away a few years ago, literally, we were signing paperwork with her as she was being wheeled into surgery. The power of attorney, the healthcare decisions. Lots of things that should have been settled much earlier in a calm room, not an ER hallway. So I really learned the hard way that estate planning isn't just like who gets money when I die.
That's just in TV. It's really who can speak for you when you can't speak for yourself. Who gets to be in the room with you? It's one of the many things that estate documents help you with. So today we are busting some of the biggest misconceptions out there about estate planning. Starting with the big one: that you have to be wealthy to be worthy of an estate plan. You don't. It's for everyone. To walk us through it, I have a wonderful guest today, Lauren Klein.
Lauren Klein is an estate planning attorney and partner at Flourish Law Group, a boutique, tax, trust, and estates firm in Florida. Lauren's been doing this work for 15 years and she's heard every version of I'm not rich enough for this from clients at every wealth level, which is exactly why she's so passionate about reframing who an estate plan is actually for. It's for all of us. She also hosts her own podcast, Legal and Wealthy.
And shares bite sized estate and wealth building education on Instagram @lawyerlaurenklein She lives in Fort Lauderdale with her husband and two young sons.
In this episode, Lauren and I are talking about what a will actually does and doesn't do, why probate is something you probably want to avoid, and what happens to debt when someone passes. Why big life events, not net worth, are the real signal that it's time to get your documents in order.
basically we're going to talk about the things we don't usually say about estates, death, and money with the wonderful Lauren Klein.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (04:05)
Welcome to the Money Healing Club podcast, Lauren. I'm so glad you're here.
Lauren Klein, Esq., LL.M. (04:09)
Thank you, Rachel. I'm so excited to be here.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (04:12)
Okay, so let's get right into what would you say are the most common misconceptions about estate planning that you hear?
Lauren Klein, Esq., LL.M. (04:20)
my gosh, there's there's so many, but I think the biggest one that I hear honestly day in and day out from people at all wealth levels, it's kind of interesting, is that people think they have to have a certain level of wealth before they are ready or worthy to even contact a lawyer about their estate planning. And so I think what happens very often is people put it off or they feel shame around kind of
opening up the closet and you know what's going on behind the scenes. And they put it off for years, you know? They put it off for years. And we always say, it's okay. We're gonna let go of the shame or the guilt around waiting and we're gonna move forward and we're gonna take action. And we're gonna let that go. You know, this is the Money Healing Club. We're gonna heal whatever's going on that, you know, we all get busy, right? So that's one of the biggest things because quite frankly if you have
children, if you have a business, if you have a home, if you have pets, if you have an opinion about who makes your healthcare decisions or who would be a guardian for your children, like all of those are kind of indicators that you probably want to at least start exploring getting an estate plan in place.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (05:35)
You know, I like this message. I feel like, hey, if you're a human in this world, you have an estate. And it's not like you have a house on the hill with a with a gate. Like that's actually not what an estate is. Like it's almost seems like we have to redefine what having an estate is. And even as much as like having a body is like that is an asset that actually needs legal protection.
And I think that's really interesting to think.
Lauren Klein, Esq., LL.M. (05:59)
Absolutely.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (05:59)
I'm kind of like having my own mind blown just like thinking about like w actually more flexibly what a state means. And if from a legal perspective, is that kind of how you think about it?
Lauren Klein, Esq., LL.M. (06:09)
Absolutely. The reality is if you are eighteen and over and you have a body and you are a human, you need something. You need something in place. Even if you don't have a dollar to your name, you need something in place. For example, we do a lot of like I wanna call it a mini estate plan for college age children. They're going off to college. They are now typically turning eighteen, so they are
adults and for those
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (06:34)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren Klein, Esq., LL.M. (06:34)
who are listening and not watching, I'm air quoting because I was not
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (06:37)
Ha ha.
Lauren Klein, Esq., LL.M. (06:38)
an adult at 18. But if something happens, let's say you get in a car accident and you're in a hospital and your parents call the hospital and say, hey, I need I need information on my my son or my daughter, we have HIPAA, right? There's a federal law that will maybe, you know, if the doctor follows the rules, not share what is going on if
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (06:58)
if they're eighteen in one
day. That would be locked up.
Lauren Klein, Esq., LL.M. (07:02)
And one day they are no longer
your minor child. And so starting at age 18, you really should have your foundational documents in place. So power of attorney who can make legal and financial decisions. And then there's healthcare documents, and each state has their own, but healthcare surrogate is, you know, what we say in Florida. So important. And then you build from there, you know, then you build from there.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (07:27)
You know, and I think I think we can point the finger to popular media and like, you know, I feel like there was a big thing in the eighties, right? Like some rich uncle dies and they read the will and it's like what p everyone's getting. And i i it's so so tell me how like the will, like where you bequeath your things to go to. I I know that's part of it, but really it's not the whole picture, is it?
Lauren Klein, Esq., LL.M. (07:49)
Mmm, it's as if you led me perfectly into the next misconception. We did not plan that. I
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (07:54)
I mean I'm a little bit psychic, so you know.
Lauren Klein, Esq., LL.M. (07:58)
can I can sense that. So then the next misconception is that a will is a sufficient estate plan. And it can be, that is the caveat, but a will does not avoid probate. So I'll give the quick
Overview of what probate is. Probate is a court process that occurs when someone passes away with an asset in their individual name, and that asset needs to get transferred either to the beneficiaries named in their will, or if there is no will under the laws of the state where you resided when you passed. So for example, if I passed with a bank account in my individual name, I never moved it into a trust, I never named a beneficiary, we'll talk about that in a little bit.
And I never added another owner on that account. In order for that bank account to get to whoever I've named in my will, all the will does is tell the probate judge who gets my stuff. Or if I didn't do that, I'm intestate. That's a little fancy legal term. I'll try to stay away from those too much, but I'm intestate. And then the state laws say who gets my assets, usually spouse, children, but it kind of just depends on your state laws.
That's probate. It's a process that is very expensive, very time consuming, and your assets get frozen typically for a certain period of time. a judge is involved.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (09:17)
Gotcha, and it sounds like and a judge is involved Yeah.
Lauren Klein, Esq., LL.M. (09:22)
A judge is involved. The court is involved. In Florida, like many other states, your assets and your beneficiary information becomes public record, which is not great. not ideal.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (09:32)
Wow.
Interesting.
Lauren Klein, Esq., LL.M. (09:35)
Yep. And that's all the will does. It says, Hey judge, I died. Here's who gets my assets. So it does not actually accomplish what most of us want is to not have our family have to deal with probate. And if you've ever dealt with probate, you know that kind of feeling that you know it's not good. And if you've heard the word, you're like, I know that's bad. I don't really know what it is, but it is something that we want to avoid, if at all possible.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (10:00)
Gotcha. And so like and I know it's state by state, but so if a person has a will in place, then when they pass, then their their whole stuff is not public information. Is that right?
Lauren Klein, Esq., LL.M. (10:13)
No, so if if
there's a probate, whether with a will, so testate or without a will intestate either way, if the assets are going through the court process of a probate, the assets become public information, at least in Florida.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (10:28)
is so interesting.
Lauren Klein, Esq., LL.M. (10:30)
Mm-hmm. But if you have something going through a trust, we'll talk about trusts today,
or through beneficiary designations, that is typically not.
public information. It's private. So that is one of
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (10:43)
Right.
Lauren Klein, Esq., LL.M. (10:43)
the big benefits of estate planning.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (10:46)
Right, it goes quicker, you're not dealing with a judge, it's just it's just sounds more straightforward, right? Like the instructions are legally bound in there, it is, and so people know what to do with your stuff. I have a side question. What if someone passes what happens with their debts? Like we know it happens with assets, but what happens with people's debts?
Lauren Klein, Esq., LL.M. (11:03)
Hm. So it depends, favorite lawyer answer ever. It depends on the type of debt and the state law or federal law, depending on the type of debt. things like mortgages. Mortgages have to be paid off. student loan debt generally croaks with you. credit card debt generally has to be paid off. So there's there's different things to consider.
as far as how you kind of set up your debt and how you hold it and and things of that nature. But some debt does get forgiven when you pass and and some doesn't. And when there is a probate, you actually, at least in Florida, but it's usually the same. I'm gonna keep saying that, but it's usually the same in all states. You actually have to put in a newspaper a notice that basically says, Hey creditors, I I'm dead. Do I have any debts? Cause then you have a certain period of time to come forward and
put a claim against my estate, right? And so all of this is kind of happening in this probate process, which is one of the reasons it takes a long time. There's like steps you have to follow. You have to give creditors the right to come forward. You have to notify known creditors like like a lender and things like that. So it depends, it depends, but sometimes the debt does reduce the amount of the estate.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (12:20)
Wow, and they still use the newspaper? Like really?
Lauren Klein, Esq., LL.M. (12:23)
It's so archaic. Like literally, it's like newspaper. It's not even like a big newspaper. It's like a newspaper that no one reads, but it's just something you
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (12:29)
Yeah. So it's someone's job
it's like some poor intern's job to read these newspapers, or probably AI's
Lauren Klein, Esq., LL.M. (12:36)
Yes.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (12:37)
job now.
Lauren Klein, Esq., LL.M. (12:38)
Probably. Yeah. But creditors do come forward. It does happen. It does happen.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (12:42)
Yeah, I bet.
I bet it does. I mean, someone they want to get their money. Okay, these are great misconceptions, right? What else what else do we have on the docket?
Lauren Klein, Esq., LL.M. (12:50)
I would say the next biggest one is I'm too young, you know, and we kind of already busted that a little bit with the 18 and over. But I think people get very hyper focused on what what is my net worth as opposed to who am I protecting and how. So for example, usually once you buy real estate or you have children or you start a business.
Or you get married or you get divorced. Kind of these big life events are usually an indicator that it's time to get an estate plan. Now you might have needed it before then, because who's going to get your assets, you know, and and how? But those are really good life indicators. Okay, it's probably time, you know, and if you're getting married, maybe you're getting a prenup
a prenuptial agreement as well. A lot of our clients we are seeing, and it's just kind of across the board, are getting married later in life. They're bringing assets to the marriage. and so prenups I think are getting kind of a a rebrand, if you will, because it's not, hey, I I think we're gonna get divorced. It's hey, we're both coming into this marriage with open eyes about what we each have. And if
If it doesn't work out, you know, especially in the next couple of years, that doesn't mean that I have to give you half of my real estate portfolio or half of this business that I started before. and we always say a prenup is actually just the floor. I could still give my spouse everything. I'm just saying I'm not legally required to do so. So big life events are more of an indicator than
net worth itself. Age really honestly has has nothing to do with it. We just typically think, like you said, the example of the grandpa in the movie with the reading of the will, which by the way, that's not a thing. Like I've done this for 15 years. We've never had a reading of the will. I'm like, when's this gonna happen? When are we gonna have our Taylor Swift moment, you know? but yeah, th those are the things that really it's time to think about it. And if you have a blended family, my gosh, you definitely need an estate plan because things just get a lot more
Complicated, even if everyone gets along.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (14:53)
Really messy. You know, within there, I'm just drawing from some of my personal experience, because I my my mom passed away about five years ago and I was heavily involved in everything. Also when she was like going into surgery, like we were literally she was signing these documents like as she was being wheeled into surgery because like they just weren't in place yet. Like power attorney, power of medical attorney. And I came to r learn in this very difficult way, like, that this is a huge part of estate documents that I didn't know. I thought it was just like, where does the money go?
But it's also this end of life care. Could we sidebar and you could tell us a little bit about those aspects?
Lauren Klein, Esq., LL.M. (15:29)
Yeah, it I think it's a really, really important point. And I I do agree that it's just not what we think of when we hear a state plan.
But but things like, you know, even if it's for us with our parents, you know, or people for for our decisions. Let's say I, you know, I always give the example to to my clients. My second son was an emergency C-section, so you know, surgery. So I brought all of my paperwork with me and I said, listen, if there's something that needs to be decided, please don't try to verify that this guy right here is my husband, you know, here is my healthcare surrogate. It says he can make decisions, he can receive information. because if you don't
Or if you don't have that power of attorney, you know, who can make legal and financial decisions? We we see this all the time. A guardianship sometimes has to be opened. And that's another court process. That's your loved ones going to court and saying, Hey, I don't have any legal authority to act on behalf of Lauren. So I need to be appointed as a guardian. And that gets expensive because again, the court is involved and lawyers, lawyers are expensive. So that's another aspect as well. Who can make legal decisions? Who can make financial decisions?
decisions, who can make healthcare decisions, who can receive the information, or and this is depressing, but who can decide, you know, should I be kept on life support or not if there is an instance, you know, where that becomes important. It's rare, but but it happens.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (16:57)
It's rare. I lived it. My siblings and I had to decide some of the stuff, right? And it's not even just life support or not life support. It's, you know, feeding tubes or not. There's like a lot of stages in like the process of decline where the patient cannot speak for themselves, like literally. And making some of these decisions, it was really interesting to go through these. It's not, it's not binary. There's actually a lot of differentiation in the process, and it can change. Like when my mother recovered.
She changed a lot of those. Like it's also not set in stone forever. Like you could have an experience like I'm gonna actually shift that, you know? Like that's fine. It does need to be notarized and stuff, but these things are also changeable.
Lauren Klein, Esq., LL.M. (17:38)
sometimes people they'll fill out the paperwork in the hospital, but then they'll wanna redo it with an attorney to make sure like they have successors and you know, some of the forms can be more in depth than the like the boilerplate template ones at the hospital.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (17:50)
Yeah.
And something I learned, tell me if I'm right or wrong on this, that your spouse doesn't automatically mean they have medical power of attorney.
Lauren Klein, Esq., LL.M. (18:00)
That's true. That's true. So
It's really important, you know, you were kind of talking about the forms in in the hospital or in the doctor's office. Sometimes they'll give them to you before surgery and they're not really the complete form. They're more of like a boilerplate. And it's good for that for then. But you want to review it with an attorney. You want to maybe fill out a more complete one because, you know, your s your your spouse or if it especially if it's a life partner, not a legal spouse, there can be some issues with receiving medical information and making healthcare decisions. Maybe it's a delay or maybe it's
Hey, we are not able to provide this information because you know she never or he never added you as a healthcare surrogate. and then typically in the hospital, you're not naming successors. With a with an attorney, when you sit down and you do the full process, you're saying, okay, if my spouse can't serve, then maybe it's my sister, or maybe it's my child if they're 25 and over. You know, there's there's a lot more thought process that goes into it.
So sometimes it's worthwhile to actually go and revisit them when it's not, you know, hey, I'm being wheeled into the the operating room.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (19:06)
Right. I mean, we can bring in, you know, what we know about the brain is the brain works really differently under stress than it does when it's regulated. And you know, signing those things while you're getting wheeled into surgery is a very different process than being like, Okay, I've had a meal and I'm not in an emergency. And so so I'll share my husband and I went through this process just a few years ago, kind of dreading it, thinking it'd be so hard. And granted, there were some questions we had not even considered that the lawyer
brought us through that were so important. And it actually wasn't as difficult as we thought, you know, just, hey, at what point do if there is a trust, what point do the kids have access to that? And like it was up to us. And we got to really spitball that with the lawyer. And it was really important to do that in a regulated place, not in a place of emergency.
Lauren Klein, Esq., LL.M. (19:56)
Yeah. Absolutely. A a good attorney will sit down and really ask you those those questions that you're like, I hadn't really thought about that, but but they're important, you know? And
I always I always emphasize, look, we're doing the planning now with the information that we have now and the hopes that it won't be needed for a very, very long time. And that kind of takes some of that like doom and gloom off. And that it is the reality. It probably won't be needed for many, many years. But that peace of mind that you experience after you get that plan in place and you have your assets retitled, we'll let's talk about that and
That's another misconception about estate planning. But once you do the process, you go through it, it does feel so much better. It's just an extension of your financial health. That's truly all and and in some ways your your physical health as well. That's all that estate planning is at the end of the day.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (20:46)
Yeah. I I was amazed at how how relieving it was to have that in place and that we wouldn't have to be making these decisions in an emergency, you know, that they were made ahead of time and even just that we, you know, my husband and I had a chance to talk about them and and some things we disagree on. Like we have different end of life directives. Boy, was that an important thing for us to clear up between us. you know, these things come up that like between partners, between spouses, you could have different opinions and this puts it in writing.
Lauren Klein, Esq., LL.M. (21:16)
Yeah, so important. So important.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (21:19)
All right, what's next on our list? You did talk about naming assets. Is that the next one?
Lauren Klein, Esq., LL.M. (21:23)
Yes.
Yes. So the next this is a misconception slash dirty little secret. So we have a dirty little secret in the estate planning world where people sometimes go to attorneys and they get a really nice trust and a really nice will and all the other documents we've been talking about, but then
The documents don't work. The plan doesn't work in the way that they intended. And the reason for that, there's a couple of reasons, but one of the biggest reasons for that is if you don't actually go and then retitle your assets, which could be moving assets into a trust, it could be updating beneficiary designations. So people most often think of beneficiary designations, I think.
when it comes to life insurance, because that's just where
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (22:07)
Mm.
Lauren Klein, Esq., LL.M. (22:07)
your mind generally goes. So you can name a beneficiary, usually a successor contingent beneficiary. That can be an individual or that could be a trust. So if you don't actually go and do that final step of moving the assets and retitling the assets, your assets will still have to go through probate, even though you paid that nice lawyer a nice, you know, legal fee.
And it happens more often than not. Unfortunately, it's more of the general rule, not the exception. So it's really important that when you are
Either getting an estate plan in place, if you're gonna go the route of working with an attorney, that you find someone who has that as part of their process. You ask, what will you do to make sure that my assets avoid probate? Will you make recommendations on how to retitle assets? Or if you're listening to this and you're like, I don't really know that I need an estate plan, or I want to do something in the meantime, you can go and make sure you have beneficiary designations on all of your financial accounts, bank accounts, brokerage accounts.
retirement accounts, life insurance, because that also does avoid probate. Now you may want to ultimately add a trust in there, you know, especially if you have minor children. We can talk about that in a moment. But you can do that now. Maybe you have a trip coming in and you're like, I just want to have a little peace of mind and I'll get an attorney later. You know, or or maybe you don't need a trust. Maybe all of your children are adults or your your assets are going to go to your parents and you you're like, I don't need a trust. I just want the assets to get to the right people if something happens
to me, you can accomplish that through a beneficiary designation.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (23:46)
I call that again the category of boring but important. Like, but you could probably take care of that in half an hour, go through all your bank accounts, right? And just designate beneficiaries.
Lauren Klein, Esq., LL.M. (23:54)
my gosh, yes.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (23:57)
And you're that will do a lot of the protection there. And just like, I think save your
family so much of a headache, right? Just like get that. And
hey, did you have more kids since you last done that? Like it's something to revisit. I think when we went in, yeah, I hadn't realized we only had one kid named, you know, because like
Things we had out a second one and
Lauren Klein, Esq., LL.M. (24:16)
Yeah.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (24:16)
and yeah, it's worth revisiting. So this is everyone's little boring but important task. Just give that a check.
Lauren Klein, Esq., LL.M. (24:23)
Yeah. It's a it's an administrative task, which is not, you know, our favorite, but it is easy,
especially if you have like a big inst like Bank of America. You literally just go on, I think it's Erica and you're like, Hey Erica, I need to update my beneficiary designation. And the little AI robot is like, Cool, here's the form. So it's it's really it's really not that hard. Each institution has its own way of doing things. And then if you want to take it to that next level, you know, you could name a trust as the beneficiary. And that way if you have more children, that already gets incorporated in.
if you get div if you get divorced, that also is something, you know, that in some states your spouse is removed. So you just want to make sure you understand what what what assets you have, how they're titled, who the beneficiary is. And if you have, again, big life events like divorce, like marriage, like children, those are great opportunities to just meet with an estate planning attorney and say, Hey, what do I need to do? Give me some give me some tips on on what I need to do next.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (25:20)
I love that. It's very tasky for those of us who like to check a box, you know, it's very doable. All right. What else
Lauren Klein, Esq., LL.M. (25:23)
Yes, yes.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (25:26)
do we have? D you said you wanted to talk about children. Yeah, if we have kids under eighteen or
Lauren Klein, Esq., LL.M. (25:29)
Yes.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (25:30)
under nineteen, what do how do we consider them in all this?
Lauren Klein, Esq., LL.M. (25:34)
Yes, so I have two little boys. They are five and four. And I have a trust that has everything going to my husband in trust. So if if I die and he gets remarried or has more kids, that's fine. But my assets that I give to him go to our two children, or if we have more children. so that's one point. And then when we both pass, our assets go into trusts for the children. So
This is a big question we get. So we're like, I'm creating all these trusts. No, I have one revocable trust that then creates subtrusts. So it's not new documents. It all happens under that document. And then let's say I have two kids when I pass, 50-50.
I have the assets staying in trust for my children. So I'm giving them a mini prenuptial agreement on the assets they inherit from me. So anything that stays in trust generally does not become part of an equitable distribution or whatever law you have in your state if there is a divorce. So that's huge because I've already given my kids that gift. And that's that's less of the administrative boring side of things. And that's more of the like, that's where clients are like, that's interesting. That's exciting.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (26:42)
Like values
Lauren Klein, Esq., LL.M. (26:44)
Values.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (26:44)
Yeah.
Lauren Klein, Esq., LL.M. (26:45)
Yeah. And you can put in like, how do I want my children to use the money? What are the values I want to impart? Maybe, you know, I only want them to be able to take out whatever they match on their 1040. So maybe last year they earned 50,000. That's the max they can take out unless there's, you know, healthcare issues or emergencies or stuff like that. that's another point.
We're talking right now about a revocable trust. So during life, I can change it, I can amend it, very flexible. When I pass, it then becomes irrevocable, unchangeable with exceptions. and so anything my children inherit again in those trusts, protected from creditors. I'm really pushing for one of my kids to become a plastic surgeon. So if he does and then he gets sued, not his assets, not in his name. They're in a trust for him.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (27:31)
five
year old plastic surgeon, yeah.
Lauren Klein, Esq., LL.M. (27:33)
Yeah, you know, just just dropping hints.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (27:37)
Yeah,
it also just makes me sorry, the like, I don't know, the word nerd in me, I think it's so interesting how it's called trust, right? And like to back up and be like,
do I trust this is how I trust you with this, or this is how I trust the money. I mean, I even really know like the root of do we use the word trust in an emotional way is that from the financial term or vice versa. We'll we'll look into it, but I think that's really interesting. And how
Like discretionary it is. You can set it up however you want. Yeah, we have kind of like a staggered thing at certain ages. They would get certain percentages, you know, and like just you know, to sit down and be thoughtful about that was was really interesting. Also, like, hey, yeah, my I have two boys too. And they're young. I don't know what they're gonna be like as an as adults, but I generally know how young men are. So, you know, like thinking about some of
Lauren Klein, Esq., LL.M. (28:20)
Yeah, yeah.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (28:21)
that. and the lawyer really helped us think through some of that. And that was really interesting. And just like you said, like
There's so much flexibility about how you could do that and structure it just from like it's almost a way to extend the parenting. Like here's what I've learned in life. You know, generally lotto winners don't tend to keep that money around. So we know this. So we're gonna spread it out in this way or have this way so like your trusted money can continue here.
Lauren Klein, Esq., LL.M. (28:45)
Yeah, yeah. Or like just what came to mind as you were talking was we often have clients that have, you know, a home or maybe a vacation home and they're like, I really think this one child would want this home. So you instead of just giving it to two kids for them to duke it out, you can say, Okay.
It must be sold, but there's a right of first refusal where one child has the option to buy it. There has to be an appraisal and fair market value, but you put in parameters, you know, or you give maybe you've bought a child a home, you keep it in the trust and you say that child gets that home, but the other child gets, you know, an equalization of money. There's so many cool things that you can do within the estate plan that really does protect your legacy and it helps avoid fighting. You know, I we've even seen my my law.
partner always says she had one matter where a father passed stepmom survived stepmom had raised the kids since they were toddlers so she was mom she was mom for all purposes but the second dad died and there was a lack of clarity in the documents they stopped talking to each other they were fighting and she was like it was the saddest thing she'd ever seen it was mom you know and it all went downhill
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (29:56)
Because it hadn't been clarified on paper. It's such
a, I do think it's such an act of of love and legacy, like you said, like to the people who who are in your family or or who depend on you in any kind of way, right? And actually I had an interview, I'll link link this
a while back with River Nice, who is a a queer and trans financial planner, and also talks about like these things, this does not have to just be your your relatives, if maybe that isn't safe.
for you. You could designate, I mean, all sorts of
stuff. What is your end of life care? Do you have gender affirming care? That get that in there. Who can be, you know, allowed in the hospital?
And then also beyond that, after you die, like where will your asset your assets be? It does not have to be to next of kin.
Lauren Klein, Esq., LL.M. (30:39)
Yeah, it's true. Or to even take that a step further, we have we have clients who are like, Well, if non-heterosexual marriage somehow gets abolished, we want to have, you know, provisions in place that say this still applies even if our marriage is no longer valid. Like there's so many
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (30:54)
Yeah.
Lauren Klein, Esq., LL.M. (30:55)
things that if you don't have a qualified planner asking you these questions and pointing these things out, or even connecting you with professionals who are very
knowledgeable in a certain space, you can you can miss things.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (31:07)
Yeah. Yeah. Really important. 'Cause then it's just gonna default to like, yeah, whatever existing laws are at the time or whatever judge, you know, and their their opinion on things. Okay, this is so important. all right, Lauren, what what other misconceptions are there any others?
Lauren Klein, Esq., LL.M. (31:21)
Let me think. I think we covered all of all of the big ones. I would say maybe the last one we've we've kind of touched on this, but just to kind of put the bow on it is, you know, we're talking a lot about different legal concepts.
But there's also the emotional side of things. You know, this is the Money Healing Club and kind of talking about peeling back the layers of of healing. You know, estate planning is very emotional and it's it's thinking things ahead and considering how best to protect your assets and to protect everyone's emotions. You know, it's I I'm a lawyer, so sometimes it's easy to get a little desensitized, but this is real life. This is people having health issues or incapacity or or passing
Away, and that's the hardest time. You know, we do a lot of probates, unfortunately. And you know, usually the the family members are like, I feel like I am in a cloud of grief and I can't think. And this is like to have to now go through this process is just the last thing I want to do when I'll while I'm grieving spouse or mom or brother or whatever it might be. And so by doing your estate planning, whether that's through a lawyer or taking some of the the tips and tricks we talked about today.
you are giving your family a very big gift. And I think that is not always emphasized enough. So I think that's really the last one. But we covered a lot of ground. We covered a lot of misconceptions in a pretty short period
of time. Yeah, there there's a lot there's a lot of meat on the bone here for sure.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (32:50)
I I have a question. You know, I see a lot of these sort of like online wizards to like make your trust and will, you know, online. What are your what are your thoughts about that?
Lauren Klein, Esq., LL.M. (32:59)
hope that at some point in time there are low cost options for people to get started. I think that, you know, as assets grow and wealth grows and things get complicated, you probably want a human.
I have not found one at this point in time that really covers all of the bases because I've been doing this for 15 years and every estate plan has had something funky in there, you know, and I just don't think we have gotten to the point where because the person who is using the software doesn't know the right questions to ask, and the software, without really having in-depth human conversations about it, it's just hard, you know.
I've never seen it go well. I'll I'll put it this way. I have never seen it go well. I have seen some of these, you know, platforms disinherit children. We had one client client, she came to us, I'm like, You have your daughter as personal representative, but not as a beneficiary. Was that intentional? And she's like, my gosh, no.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (33:55)
Right. I thought it was the same
thing. Or you're taking, yeah, regular folks who don't know the lingo or don't know what they don't know. And okay, so that's so little word of warning. I know there are resources out there.
Lauren Klein, Esq., LL.M. (34:03)
Right, right. yeah.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (34:07)
Might be better than nothing, however, just be careful, you know, like yeah, like you said, everyone's got some kind of extenuating circumstance. And if you do, it sounds like it's still worth, you know, contacting an estate lawyer, just getting a little consult, right?
Lauren Klein, Esq., LL.M. (34:22)
Yeah.
lot of estate planning attorneys will do complimentary consultations you know so learn some information say hey i listen to this podcast here here are my questions you know seriously i i think it's funny because even 10-15 years ago we didn't get information like this now there's so much information out there use that to your advantage you know sometimes it can feel overwhelming but use it to your advantage listen to podcasts like this that will give you not everything but you know the starting points and things things to point out
I have one more misconception. I have one because it's like a big TikTok one. People are
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (34:54)
Yeah.
Lauren Klein, Esq., LL.M. (34:56)
like, put all your assets in the trust and then your creditors will never get you and you'll never pay taxes again.
I see some iteration of that all the time, or clients come to us and like, so do I never have to pay taxes again? It's like, no, that's that's not how this works. So there are trusts that you can move assets into for creditor protection. They're more complicated, advanced trust planning called irrevocable trust. We talked about how a revocable trust, like a foundational one, becomes irrevocable. There are more complicated ones, but there's trade-offs because you're you're giving up your access to that asset.
You know, it gets very expensive. So your net worth or your your asset protection needs has to really kind of justify it. But there's a lot of stuff out there that is just not true. There's, you know, there's way to mi ways to minimize your income taxes, but you can't just put assets in a trust and never pay tax again. You're welcome.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (35:49)
I think that's really fair. There's no like life hack really around taxes. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Thank you.
those TikTokers. my gosh.
Lauren Klein, Esq., LL.M. (36:00)
But you know what?
they start conversations. I have to say. I I feel like clients have come to us, whether it's TikTok or AI, they come to us more informed, you know, and sometimes their information is wrong, but they started thinking about it. You know what I mean? And they educated themselves a bit. So I think it's actually a good thing. It's just don't rely on it.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (36:20)
That's okay. That's a really good point on it.
So we talked about also kind of shifting into as we're t as we think about inheritance and legacy of, you know, I've heard online, hey, I'm an elder millennial, like, this great wealth transfer. As the boomers and and silent gen gen pass on or deal with their assets, they're, you know, the boomers are I think mo the wealthiest generation, right? And it's gonna go somewhere. And they've generally hung on to their wealth.
So this this great wealth transfer, which is, you know, in macroeconomic terms there. Micro is maybe a different story. so let's yeah, tell me tell me your thoughts on what's going on there with a great wealth transfer.
Lauren Klein, Esq., LL.M. (37:00)
Yeah, well, elder millennial to elder millennial, it it is happening, you know, we are seeing people are passing on, they're leaving in in some instances wealth and in some instances messes, you know, for the family to clean up. And I was telling you before we hit record, I was in a meeting last week and someone's like, Where's this great wealth transfer? I haven't seen any wealth yet. Like, what's going on here? But it the reality is there's there's trillions of dollars going to be passed down to Gen X.
Millennial, Gen Z, so on and so forth. and more money will be in the hands of women than ever before. And so it is a very important, I'll get on my soapbox for a second. It is a very important time for all of us women to be financially literate. It has not been that long that we've been able to have our own credit cards or have our own mortgages. So we have to give ourselves grace. We also can't use that as an excuse. It's time to become financially literate, and estate planning is a part of financial literacy.
And so knowing, you know, if you if you have that kind of relationship with your parents, what do they have in place? What is their estate plan? How are things set up? Opening the conversation and the dialogue with a generation that quite frankly does not like having that dialogue can be hard. But what we have happen a lot in our practice is the children, you know, let's say the elder millennials get their estate plan in place and they're like, that was actually really nice and that process wasn't that bad. And then they talk to mom or dad or whatever.
And then the conversation and the dialogue opens up. I think it's really important to to have these conversations, to educate ourselves on our money. I think we actually have a an obligation to do so while this money is is coming into our hands. And I hope everyone listening gets lots of wealth, you know, transferred to them. And it's gonna look different for all of us, but transfer the wealth, you know, because
it is a unique time in history. and I think it's an important time to
not rely on and on others, it's great to have financial professionals and CPAs and attorneys, but what I encourage everyone not to do is just to hand it over and set it and forget it. It's understanding, having authority and autonomy over what's going on in your life, because that trickles to everything, in my opinion.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (39:13)
I totally agree. And I think it can work. I think about the generations, you know, so often like with clients I have when they have children, it's like, this is a great opportunity to start like with your own money healing journey to bring your kids into it. And then guess what? You're also gonna involve your folks. or you could, you know, there's an opportunity there because at some point,
if your parents or elders are living, you may get really involved in their finances. And if that's
If that comes out of nowhere or if that's in the midst of an emergency, heck, you know, that's really hard. But if like it's probably the process of many conversations, right? seeing what your parents' wishes are, getting it in writing, having a thoughtful lawyer like you like ask the questions you wouldn't even think of asking. You know, and I think protection on both sides. I see some, you know, older clients of mine really wanting to support their kids and just figuring out how can I support them and also protect my future because aging
is longer and more expensive than it ever has been as well. And I actually this is one of the things I I think about, you know, I hear about the wealth transfer a lot, but also aging is so expensive. Like I wonder if some
of that is actually gonna get eaten up in the aging process because that is so costly now.
Lauren Klein, Esq., LL.M. (40:28)
Yeah. Yeah, you have you have at the top the great wealth transfer, but then how much is actually, you know, getting transferred at the end of the day is is a very real question. So things like, you know, in-home healthcare, nursing homes, assisted living will absolutely eat away a lot of families' wealth, especially as people are living longer. so knowing a good attorney that also can touch on elder law and Medicaid planning, you know, in whatever state your family is in is very key because they're a
strategies where you can legitimately and legally move assets around and protect funds so your your
parent or grandparent can apply for Medicaid or, you know, whatever the version is in in each state. That's huge. and then, you know, again, going back to probate, like how much are costs, how much are, you know, a state's going to be dwindled down because of legal fees and court fees and time. You know, so there's there's a lot of there's a lot of
There's a lot of things to think about, right? So it's so important to have a team around you and have people you trust that you can say, Hey, what do you think about this? You know, is the mom might need to move into an assisted living in the next year or two. What what should I start to think about now? what is the best way to set things up, you know, for for success? Cause it is it is very expensive and families' wealth can, you know, I I always say it's the very wealthy, they have, you know, their own stuff, but
They can afford a lot of this stuff. It's it's the families that have in in the middle class that have worked really hard for money to build their wealth and their legacy. It's devastating when that gets lost, you know, when there is not adequate planning. So just get information.
Talk to people, get your crew, surround yourself by people that are willing to have these conversations, you know, make it less weird talking about money or helping your parents, you know. I think the more that we open the dialogue and the more that we support each other and like, hey, this is what I did, or hey, did you hear what you know Susie did? Or or I have this great lawyer, here's what I paid, you know, for my estate plan, all of that.
Here's what I made this year, or whatever whatever. Like all of that will just continue to allow us to to heal. Like it is, I love the name of your podcast because
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (42:51)
Thank you.
Lauren Klein, Esq., LL.M. (42:51)
it there is healing in in community and talking about these things.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (42:55)
I mean when we got our estate docs done, I I've been a total evangelist. Like, my gosh, do you have state documents done? You know, whenever I talk to someone and because of the relief I found, and you know, it actually circles back to your first point. This is not just for the wealthy. It actually has nothing to do with that. And if, you know, if you're listening and you have living parents or relatives, just start the conversation. Do they have their estate docs? It can be you know, just starting with that.
And that it's probably many conversations. it is I love what we said, yeah, we're just trying to make this less weird. That's like my whole mission in life. And it might seem weird, but then once you get going, we're all wondering and thinking about these things so much in private. And I
Lauren Klein, Esq., LL.M. (43:39)
Yep. Yep.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (43:41)
found that like getting really involved with my my mother's finances was actually a way that brought us closer. Not that it was always easy. I'm not saying it was like wonderful and easy, sometimes it was hard, but
Lauren Klein, Esq., LL.M. (43:50)
Yeah, sorry.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (43:52)
Because she didn't have a spouse, you know, it was she felt really alone with it, and I was able to like be in there. And then like we really had a plan in place that made it so much easier after she did pass to to to figure everything out and and button it up so that then I could just deal with grief. so it's yeah, I will say it seems weird
Lauren Klein, Esq., LL.M. (44:10)
Yeah.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (44:12)
at first, but then it is it actually is can be a really good thing.
Lauren Klein, Esq., LL.M. (44:16)
Yeah, breaking generational curses and money trauma.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (44:19)
And I think sure, could your parents have some skeletons in the closet? Totally. and that doesn't mean they have to share them all with you, but if you know, introducing them to somebody who holds confidentiality and a professional to talk about it again, it is not just for the wealthy. It is for everyone. Yeah.
Lauren Klein, Esq., LL.M. (44:36)
Yeah,
that is an important point. If you hire not in the consult, but if you hire an attorney, there is attorney client privilege. So whatever you share, that attorney legally cannot share.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (44:48)
Not even to the kids. Yeah. That's all.
Lauren Klein, Esq., LL.M. (44:50)
Not even
to the kids. If the kids call I say I'm sorry, you're not the client. Even if they're client you know, themselves, then they can't share it unless it's within the firm. So that gives a little peace of mind too. I'm sure most people know that, but it's worth it's worth reiterating.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (45:04)
Think
it's worth reiterating. I I do, yeah. like I'm just thinking in the in the case of debts and things like that, you know, and and how often, you know, I talk to folks whose parents passed away and oof, some some secrets were revealed. And so it's definitely it's pretty normal and it's totally there. Yeah.
Lauren, this has been wow, like estate planning 101. I not really 101, but like the the intro. Like we're giving everyone the primer on this. And I hope everyone listening at least feels a little more informed. Like you said, like.
Knowing that you have questions to ask, I hope it has opened the path for folks to look at getting even basic estate documents. First, we've got like naming beneficiaries on any accounts you have is a great first step. Contacting an estate lawyer in your state is is important. You know, do a little bit of your own research. And yeah, it's not just for the rich and famous. Everyone has an estate.
Lauren Klein, Esq., LL.M. (45:56)
Everyone has an estate.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (45:58)
Yeah, thank you.
So if someone wanted to get in touch with you, could tell us more about your work.
Lauren Klein, Esq., LL.M. (46:03)
Absolutely. So we are Flourish Law Group. We are a boutique, tax and trust and estates firm. We are only licensed in the state of Florida, but we do have a contact us form on our website. So if you are say in California, New York, Ohio, and you're like, I I want some recommendations, we do work with people across the country. So always happy to share any referrals and recommendations that we have. I'm also very active on Instagram at lawyer Lauren Klein, and that will kind of take you.
to my different platforms. I have a podcast, Legal and Wealthy, where I share a lot of, it's more geared towards attorneys, but there's a lot of great information. I have a new season coming out and I've had multiple real estate investors on. So I think there's some episodes that would be very interesting just to listen to if you want to maybe up-level to that next, you know, version of building your wealth. Yeah, and I'm in Fort Lauderdale with my husband and our two little baby boys.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (47:02)
That's wonderful. We'll put all the links in the show notes. thank you so much for being on the podcast and sharing your wisdom with us, Lauren.
Lauren Klein, Esq., LL.M. (47:09)
Thank you, Rachel. It's been my pleasure. This is really fun. Thank you for having me.
Rachel Duncan (47:16)
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