S2 E43: 💰 What Does "Wealth" Really Mean for Your Money Story? w/ Nicole Cloutier [Rebroadcast]
EPISODE SUMMARY
In this special rebroadcast episode of The Money Healing Club podcast, Rachel Duncan is the guest on It's All Poetry, a podcast hosted by copywriter, poet, and self-described word nerd Nicole Cloutier that dedicates each episode to exploring exactly one word in depth. And the word they chose? Wealth. Together they dig into its etymology, its evolving definitions across centuries, and the deeply personal, often contradictory feelings it stirs up in all of us.
They explore the surprising gap between "rich" and "wealthy," why wealth can feel morally dangerous to want, how the Boomer vs. Millennial economic experience has quietly shaped what financial security even looks like today, and what it actually means to build slow money in a world obsessed with the quick win.
💬 "Wealth feels quieter. It feels like it's okay to want wealth where maybe it's not okay to want to be rich." — Nicole Cloutier
Key Takeaways:
The word wealth carries much more emotional and moral baggage than its dictionary definition, and unpacking that is the first step
"Rich" is about perception and spending; "wealthy" is about lasting value that grows on its own
The 4% rule and "Rule of 25" are powerful frameworks for understanding what a real retirement number actually looks like for YOU
Fast money (cash flow) and slow money (investing) both matter and serve different purposes
Many people unconsciously inherited the belief that wanting wealth is greedy or shameful
The systemic advantages Boomers had (subsidized education, pensions, economic booms) are largely gone, and that context matters for how millennials build wealth today
True wealth, at its core, is about safety: having your needs met and options available
About Nicole Cloutier: Nicole is a copywriter, poet, MFA graduate, and host of the It's All Poetry podcast, where each episode explores one word in depth with one guest. She's also the founder of Copy Poetics, a studio devoted to helping purpose-driven business owners find their voice and make money doing what they love.
⏰ EPISODE BREAKDOWN:
00:00 | A Word That Changes Everything Rachel introduces this rebroadcast and shares why "wealth" is the concept she's had the biggest personal transformation around.
10:30 | Rich vs. Wealthy: What's the Real Difference? The two break down why "rich" feels flashy and short-term while "wealth" feels quiet and lasting, and what that says about how we really relate to money.
26:00 | The Boomer vs. Millennial Wealth Gap A frank conversation about how systemic support quietly built Boomer wealth and why the playbook simply doesn't work the same way anymore.
40:00 | What Do YOU Actually Want Wealth to Mean? Drawing from ancient Greek philosophy, etymology, and lived experience, Rachel and Nicole land on a definition of wealth rooted in safety, options, and value that grows on its own.
📚 Resources Mentioned
💌 Connect with Nicole
Website: https://www.copypoetics.com
☎️ Join the Conversation!
What does the word wealth bring up for you: hope, guilt, confusion, something else? Record your thoughts and send Rachel a voice message right from your phone or browser! 👉 https://www.moneyhealingclub.com/podcast
🎧 Your next listen:
🛒 Why You Keep Impulse Spending — And How to Finally Stop — dig into the emotional triggers behind impulse purchases and what to do instead. https://www.moneyhealingclub.com/podcast/s2e35
💝 Support the Podcast
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💰 What Does "Wealth" Really Mean for Your Money Story? w/ Nicole Cloutier [Rebroadcast]
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[00:00:00]
Rachel Duncan: Welcome to the Money Healing Club podcast. I'm your host, Rachel Duncan. I'm a certified financial therapist and art therapist, and you've come to the softest place to land when it comes to personal finance. Just a reminder, this podcast is for educational purposes only and does not replace mental health care or financial advice.
Please seek a licensed professional for your needs and be careful who you get advice from.
I am going to say a word, and I want you to pay attention to how your body reacts wealth. Wealth. Like if you strip away. All the Pinterest visuals, the money influencer, noise, hustle, culture, inherited narratives from your family. What does wealth mean to you? I mean, there are so many associations.
It's very complex. Today's episode is a rebroadcast of a podcast where I was the guest it's called, it's All [00:01:00] Poetry with Nicole Cloutier. So you're going to get to know a little bit more about me personally on the other side of the mic, and you'll hear about my relationship with the word wealth. I've come to know Nicole well because I've hired Nicole. She's a copywriter, and she helped me wordsmith my website and I've taken many of her writing trainings. Nicole's taught me how to sound like me and have a business. You can check out her work, which I highly recommend at copypoetics.com. In our episode, we dive into the word wealth.
It's etymology, it's changing definitions throughout the ages. It's truly fascinating and I think it's a really important word to talk about. I think you're gonna love it. So let's talk about what we don't usually say when we talk about wealth with Nicole Cloutier.
Nicole Cloutier: Welcome to another episode of It's All Poetry. Today I have someone that I am super excited to be chatting [00:02:00] with, especially about the topic we're about to get into. It is Rachel Duncan. Hi Rachel. Hi Nicole. Happy to be here. Oh, so happy to have you. For those of you that don't know Rachel, she is a certified financial therapist, an art therapist, and the founder of Money Healing Club, which is a shame-free space for people who want to feel calmer and more confident with money.
Rachel, anything you want people to know about you upfront besides that?
Rachel Duncan: I also have a podcast called the Money Healing Club podcast. So I love, uh, recording and getting all up in this mic.
Nicole Cloutier: Yeah, and as y'all may have guessed, we're going to talk about money a bit today, but the word we're focusing on is wealth, which you know, is tied up with money and also not tied up with money.
And so excited to dive into it with everybody. But Rachel, I would love to start by asking what your personal connection is with the word wealth, and more specifically, let's start with. What is your earliest memory of the word wealth or the concept of wealth? Well,
Rachel Duncan: [00:03:00] I'm glad we're talking about it 'cause I think it's the concept.
I've had the biggest transformation. With, in relating to in my life, especially now that I am a financial professional, which I don't think I ever thought I would've been way back when, although there is a golden thread. If I were to look back throughout my life, my, my parents came, my parents were an interesting mix in terms of class and profession because.
My parents were older when I was born, and so my dad was more of like the silent generation. He was born in 1922 in Oklahoma, so grew up during the Dust Bowl and the depression. He was a seaplane pilot in World War II, like farm True Farm boy, but also the first one in his family to go to college. He got his PhD in education.
He was very passionate about education. That's how my parents met. So while like. I think he did substantially, you know, kind of did the education route, which was really different for his family. That's what brought him to Colorado, was to teach at a university here. Um, you know, he was a real cycle breaker, [00:04:00] but he was kind of still the working man.
Like he was still so much of like the farm boy. Like we grew up with goats and chickens and he always had a big garden and. In, in his retirement. He made things out of wood and you know, he, he just sort of never left that like farm boy roots, even though he had, you know, went to higher education. And then my mom came from England.
She was from England actually. And her, her father fought in World War II. She was really impacted by World War II herself as a child and. And, and they met here in the education sphere and very much kinda the proletariat. You know, they were, we spent many weekends at at soup kitchens for homeless teens making food for them.
I mean, they were just very much of that kind of liberal place of really helping the common person. So I think I definitely grew up with like. Yeah, we, we get by, but being wealthy is bad. And I don't know if they ever said that, but like that's definitely the implicit thing of like, oh, if someone has wealth, that means they're greedy.[00:05:00]
They're not doing their part to help others. So I think the word wealth definitely had a really negative connotation. Mm-hmm. And some of the dichotomy is because they so believed in education, they somehow made it work for me to go to private school. So then I am in private school financial aid kid.
With very wealthy families, you know, and doing play dates at these wealthy houses. And so in this funny way, I also got exposed to it and there was also this message of like, oh, be nice to them because they're wealthy. So I think there's a lot of like heaviness and double messaging, you know? And my mother, I can say that she has passed on, you know, be very grateful.
Like her wealthy friends really helped her out. Like before she came, met my dad. She was a teacher also at a private school, and there were a lot of wealthy families. And when she went through a horrible. Divorced in the sixties. She got to stay with some of these families who were very generous and were wealthy.
Mm-hmm. So, you know, she was always very grateful for that. And they maintained friends, but it was also like, oh, but we're not [00:06:00] of them, but we need to be friends with them. So I think there's a lot of heaviness and a lot of mixed messages of like, we can be friends with wealthy people, but you should not.
Strive to be wealthy. That's bad. You know, like is that mixed up with greed? Oh, well if you're holding onto money, that means you're not helping people. So I think that's a lot of what I came into my adulthood with.
Nicole Cloutier: Do you see that a lot with people you work with too? The idea that wealth is. Potentially bad.
Yes.
Rachel Duncan: I think we do unpack that. It's like, okay, well I would like to have more money. Like I know I need more money, but like I don't, I also don't know quite what to do with it. Mm-hmm. There's that like, am I gonna get in trouble if I don't know what to do with it, or my family never had it, so I don't know what to do with it.
Also, it burns a hole in my pocket if it's sitting there in the account. You know, that comes up a lot. And I think this perception also of wealth, meaning. Buying more things or spending more money. So that's, I think it's a thing that's very interesting about how we perceive money is often how we spend, but there's a [00:07:00] lot more to money than that.
Yeah. I also have kind of a subset of clients. Who are very this quiet minority of folks who have inherited wealth and feel like they can't talk about it. And you know, I've worked with some of these folks who, you know, say like, I don't think a group program is right for me because I know that I have like literal unearned privilege, but I have nowhere to talk about.
Like it's still emotional, like money is emotional, no matter how much money you have. So that's been an interesting aspect of my work is working with folks with inherited wealth and just what that means for them.
Nicole Cloutier: Yeah. I think one question that is popping up for me now that I think we should address early is the difference between money and wealth.
What is that to you?
Rachel Duncan: I'd love to get into the definitions and stuff as well. Yeah,
Nicole Cloutier: I mean, wealth.
Rachel Duncan: Relates more to net worth. Mm-hmm. Which is the value of your assets, and you subtract the liabilities and what's left over. Now, it's not like there's a [00:08:00] dollar amount that means wealthy or not wealthy, but it means that difference between the value of what you own.
Versus your debts, is that substantial enough to last? When I think of the word wealth, the perception of lastingness, whether it's intergenerational wealth or something that is substantial and runs on its own, it's often tied with assets, not necessarily cash. Like someone can be wealthy with their land, for example, we hear sometimes.
So I think you can be wealthy in different aspects of different kinds of assets. You can have. I think the perception is there's kind of a lastingness when it, when it comes to wealth, and it really kind of relates more to net worth.
Nicole Cloutier: Yeah. That rings true for me. That word lasting feels like Exactly. Right.
It's like money is the thing that can build this lasting wealth. Okay, are you ready to look at the definitions? Let's do it. So the way we'll do this is we'll go backwards in time. So we'll start by looking at the modern definitions from Merriam Webster. [00:09:00] Then we'll look at the 1828 Webster Dictionary, and then we'll look at the the deep, deep etymology wealth 2025 definition.
We have three of them. One is an abundance of valuable material possessions or resources. Which is interesting considering what you just said too. Number two is an abundant supply or profusion. Number three is all property that has a money value or an exchangeable value. The second part of that third definition is all material objects that have economic utility.
Especially the stock of useful goods, having economic value in existence at any one time. Example, national wealth.
Rachel Duncan: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And value and abundance
Nicole Cloutier: coming up. I was gonna ask what stood out for you? Do these feel true? Like, do they feel like true with the way you would describe wealth? [00:10:00]
Rachel Duncan: Yeah. It also makes me realize, wow, we've put on so many more layers of perception about this word.
Like yeah, I do think that these definitions, yeah, that seems right. Makes me think of, oh, I would say, oh, wealthy people are, or they must be wealthy. Or They must be rich, which is a different word to explore. You know, like, oh, we put on a lot of layers about what wealth needs to look like. Yeah, it was, that is absent from that definition.
Nicole Cloutier: Yeah. Yeah. I know we were talking before we started recording about Rich versus Wealth. Do you wanna talk about that a bit now? Oh,
Rachel Duncan: sure. Yeah. I think this is interesting. I just think we have different associations and actually did a little of my own research and you know, rich. Has a much broader application, right?
You can eat a rich brownie, right? It's often about like density of sensory experience, right? A rich color, rich food, rich perfume. So I kind of love, like there's this whole sensory aspect I think when it comes to money. I feel like the word rich very much has a perception, like they look [00:11:00] rich and it often has to do more with spending and lifestyle where wealth doesn't necessarily, I mean, it's in there, but I do think rich versus wealthy, it just makes me think of like 11th grade English and great, great Gatsby, and as we kind of go back in time, right?
It's like old money versus new money. I think there's a little bit of that. Yeah. Lifestyles of the rich and famous. Not wealthy and famous. Mm-hmm. Or get rich quick, not get wealthy quick. So there's a short term ness of richness. Winning the lottery, it feels like flash in the pan to me. And it's very much perception, keeping up with the Joneses' lifestyle stuff where someone can be wealthy and not look wealthy.
Yeah.
Nicole Cloutier: That's there.
Rachel Duncan: There's something there.
Nicole Cloutier: Yeah. No, I think like that feels so true. The word rich almost feels like it has a grit to it. Like a dirtiness. Like it's like if there's something. More negative about it, and I don't think that's fair. I'm not saying that's the way it should be, but like comparing the words like wealth feels quieter for sure.
Feels quieter. Which is like
Rachel Duncan: a Scrooge [00:12:00] McDuck.
Nicole Cloutier: Yes. Wealth does feel, it feels like it's okay to want wealth where maybe it's not okay to want to be rich. Yeah.
Rachel Duncan: Mm. Yeah. Something there.
Nicole Cloutier: All right, let's keep digging. All right, so 1828. So let's look for the, the differences. So we have two definitions, pros. The first one is prosperity or external happiness, and the second one is riches.
Large possessions of money, goods, or land. That abundance of worldly estate, which exceeds the estate of the greater part of the community. Affluence opulence.
Rachel Duncan: Can you say that last part again?
Nicole Cloutier: Yes. I didn't understand it. Yeah, I had to read this a few times. What is the sentence? Each day, new Wealth without their care provides.
Rachel Duncan: Can you explain that to me? I'll explain what
Nicole Cloutier: I'm seeing in it. Okay. You could tell me if you agree. So obviously this is like 1828. [00:13:00] The definitions are often very poetic, so they take some reading. I love it. But yeah, so each day new wealth occurs without. Like manual care is what I'm seeing.
Rachel Duncan: Oh, like it grows on its own.
Nicole Cloutier: It's passive
Rachel Duncan: grows on its own. You don't have to keep adding to it necessarily. I mean, that's the dream
Nicole Cloutier: we're after, right? Is the passive income, the stocks, the courses, the things that build wealth without us having to put in the hour, like money for the hour.
Rachel Duncan: Right. Right. Just dividends, compounding interest.
I'm struck with external happiness. Yes. In that one. What was it?
Nicole Cloutier: Yeah, that abundance of worldly estate, which exceeds the estate of the greater part of the community.
Rachel Duncan: Wow. So like visibly different than the community? Yes. Yes.
Nicole Cloutier: Visibly different, visibly more, which is,
Rachel Duncan: which I would think of nowadays as being rich.
Nicole Cloutier: Yeah.
Rachel Duncan: As being more visibly different than the community.
Nicole Cloutier: But yeah, I guess it's like, like I keep thinking. 1828. I'm thinking back to [00:14:00] Jane Austen Times, which is before this. Mm-hmm. Right. But I'm sure influenced this. Um, I'm thinking of the main character in her book, like Mr. Darcy having this big estate.
And it's so obviously more than the town nearby where everyone's like staying in ins and, you know, servants of the, the Darcy household. Like it's an obvious difference in wealth.
Rachel Duncan: Right.
Nicole Cloutier: And it has to be greater than the greater part of the community.
Rachel Duncan: Really The house on the hill.
Nicole Cloutier: Yeah. Kinda thing.
Rachel Duncan: Yeah.
Nicole Cloutier: But yeah, external happiness. I don't even know what that means really.
Rachel Duncan: You look like you got it together.
Nicole Cloutier: Yes. See, I was reading that wrong. I was reading it as like happiness that comes from the external rather than comes from within. But I think you're actually correct in what they intended was this like appearance of happiness.
Rachel Duncan: The perception of happiness. Yeah. I feel that there's very interesting research. Into, you know, people with more stable money tend to have better health, health outcomes. Duh, right? Mm-hmm. Like can access resources can [00:15:00] say, get massages and get the stuff that feels like extra and is not accessible to other people.
And there's a study where. Just looking at photographs, people could pretty accurately identify who was wealthy, just based on how you look. Interesting, what your teeth look like, what does your skin look like, you know? And so I do think that especially maybe back then, having access to more help in care, they're probably living longer, had a level of health.
Right.
Nicole Cloutier: Yeah. I think I've heard you say something before.
About what people wanting, like what the wealth looks like or wanting, I forget how you put it. The, the wealth is the external stuff. It's like the car that you can drive. It's the, uh,
Rachel Duncan: yes. Oh, this is probably the thing I say a lot is that there's only four things you can do with money. You can make it. You can invest it, you can borrow it, and you can spend it.
So I think of these four quadrants. But what is the thing we [00:16:00] see? We pretty much, we only see what people are buying. Um, you don't see the other three. And that's why like, it's really dangerous to make assumptions about people and things like that because like there could be, debt could be a huge factor, there could be inheritance income.
That's a factor. We tend not to talk about income, but we see the car, we see the home, we see the vacations or whatever. Social media makes the association of spending with wealth and richness very strong. When it really just tells one part of the story. It just doesn't tell the whole story. So that's probably,
Nicole Cloutier: yes, that's exactly it.
And that struck me at the time, even though I didn't remember it exactly, but I mean, if we go back to our Jane Austen ELs, I feel like there's a main character who looks opulent, that is dealing with some sort of gambling debt that their like husband has left behind after they died.
Rachel Duncan: That's right. You can never guess what's going on.
Yeah.
Nicole Cloutier: Alright, let's keep digging backwards. So I think the changes we've noticed are, well, they both have abundance in 1828. In the current [00:17:00] definition, they, they're both pretty material about the estate. About prosperity. We've got a little more happiness, I think, emotion in the 1828 definition than in the modern.
Yeah. Because it's
Rachel Duncan: very poetic.
Nicole Cloutier: Yeah.
Rachel Duncan: And I think in the modern one, there's more value that's maybe broader. 'cause a lot of things can have value. Yeah. So, yeah.
Nicole Cloutier: Yeah. Okay. So etymology my favorite part. Mm-hmm. Wealth. Mid 12th century. Wealth is a state or condition of happiness, wellbeing, or joy. Hmm.
Contrasted with care or woe. Also valuable material possessions, prosperity and abundance, which is from, which is an analogy of health, which makes sense. I mean, wealth and health. By the 1590s it was known as plenty or abundance of anything. And then of course we have the Wealth of Nations in 1666. Adam Smith in [00:18:00] 1776, the Wealth Tax by 1963.
One thing I noticed though is the etymology, like the deepest, deepest etymology state or condition of happiness, wellbeing, joy, has nothing to do with money as we know of wealth today.
Rachel Duncan: Isn't that interesting?
Nicole Cloutier: Yeah. Do you think that adding money to the definition of wealth kind of corrupts the core idea, or do you think they can go hand in hand?
Rachel Duncan: I think it's just really interesting as a phenomenon of like, okay, there's this more general term of wellbeing, but economically those with resources probably have better wellbeing, you know, in a lot of ways, right? Being able to access food and care and services and having some stability that folks without those resources don't have.
So I can also see the thread. Yeah. Of well then who has more, more reliable wellbeing? It's probably those with resources. So then those two get connected, but yeah. Right. Not necessarily so because you can be wealthy in so [00:19:00] many ways. But yeah, it is interesting how it got kind of into that lane of associated with assets for wellness.
Nicole Cloutier: Well, I love what you said about wealth. Like you can be wealthy and much more than money. I think especially if we go back in the etymology, you can be wealthy in time and I think we do use it sometimes this way, right? Like I have a wealth of time. I have a wealth of knowledge of, I guess you could say technically, you could correctly say a wealth of anything.
I have a wealth of books.
Rachel Duncan: Especially with it being yeah, happiness, well being, joy, and, you know, possessions are in there a little bit, even back in the 12th century. Someone on my podcast, a financial activist named Jasmine Rashid, she talks about your, your net worth is your net. Mm-hmm. Right? It is like the, the, and even those with substantial wealth, often, it's not just the money they have, it's the connections that they have, it's the relationships.
But I can see that, I think that's true for all of us. You know, we wouldn't give up. Our connections for anything, right? Like we value this so much and can be so [00:20:00] protective and supportive in a very practical way that money can't be.
Nicole Cloutier: Yeah. So Wealth of connections.
Rachel Duncan: Yeah,
Nicole Cloutier: wealth of network, which can definitely lead to wealth of money too.
Mm-hmm. All right. Well let's talk a little bit about, 'cause I, I think in the research, what stood out to me so much is what we're talking about, right? Kind of intersection of money with happiness, wellbeing, joy, and I think that also says something about the way you were talking about it being lasting, like adding those things or making condition of happiness, wellbeing, or joy to money.
I think that's what softens it in our mind is this like connection of wellbeing with money. Mm-hmm. Rather than just like rich, which is mm-hmm. Seems entirely money. Even though I know it's not, you know what I, I think that's what kind of makes it softer, but I think because this is going to be coming out around Christmas time, like thinking about Scrooge McDuck and like Ebenezer Scrooge and the variations of that, like the [00:21:00] line too where wealth becomes greed or wealth becomes disgusting.
Right. Do you think there's a line where wealth becomes greed?
Rachel Duncan: Or those who have have a responsibility. Mm-hmm. I think that is a real thing that's floating around. Billie Eilish gave an awards acceptance speech that went viral where she said, I didn't see it. There are people in this room who are billionaires and why.
Why are you billionaires? And it really took off because she's like pretty famously given away quite a bit of mm-hmm. Of her wealth and, you know, kind of this talk of like, why are there billionaires? I, I'd say I don't have like a firm stance on this topic. I don't tend to like, do a lot of stuff on the, the macro side, but it is kind of like wow.
Accumulating that it's really, it's beyond wealth, it's power and. I think we've seen, and maybe it's just popularized, you know, folks with that, with that level of wealth that really has, you know, no contact [00:22:00] with most. How nor regular people live. You know, there's a real alienation there and especially when I think we're living in really rough economic times.
I mean, I wouldn't be surprised if in six months that we are in the definition of a recession.
Nicole Cloutier: We're
Rachel Duncan: certainly feeling it. I think we're in a psychological recession right now with the, you know, we're recording right after the government reopened. Really feeling, I think a lot of folks are feeling very vulnerable.
Economically. Mm-hmm. And rightfully so. I really think that's there. So. I think there's this, like, how can you be wealthy when there's so much suffering?
Nicole Cloutier: Yeah. Is
Rachel Duncan: is the question?
Nicole Cloutier: Yeah.
Rachel Duncan: And you know, I see these things on my feed. Oh, if Jeff Bezos or Elon Musk, like they could single handedly fix hunger in America with their own wealth, and that's hard to sit with.
Do they hear that? I don't know. 'cause I think folks on that other side don't see it that way. Right? They say, oh, I'm an employer, or I'm an innovator, or that is not their responsibility. Or they are [00:23:00] responsible in other ways or,
Nicole Cloutier: yeah.
Rachel Duncan: I think that one of the things about wealth, because it's about just assets and things of value, it doesn't necessarily mean you have piles of cash,
Nicole Cloutier: right?
Rachel Duncan: Like it is, and I'm not defending like people with ultra high net worth, but like. It's often tied up in real estate and investments. It's not just like money and so it's not, sometimes they're not very liquid and that's a whole thing. I have some planner friends who, we have a consult group who are, we're all financial therapists and it's really interesting, these planners who are helping like wealthy families.
Figure out their estates, and often it is tied up in stuff that is not cash. It doesn't mean they're sitting around with lots of cash necessarily. They have a lot of value, and that doesn't necessarily mean cash. So, yeah, you know, there's just a lot under the hood.
Nicole Cloutier: Money is complicated.
Rachel Duncan: It looks so different for different people.
Nicole Cloutier: Have you seen Loot?
Rachel Duncan: No.
Nicole Cloutier: Oh, it's a show with, oh my gosh, I'm blanking on her name. Molly's the name of the character. I think you'd love it. [00:24:00]
Rachel Duncan: Maybe I,
Nicole Cloutier: Maya Rudolph. The character's name is Molly Novak. Oh, I saw the first few episodes. Yeah. I love it. It is so funny. There aren't a lot of shows where I wait for the episode to come out, like on a release schedule.
I will binge watch stuff, but Lou, I wait in anticipation for these episodes.
Rachel Duncan: Right. And she's totally outta touch. Yes. Totally outta touch. I'm
Nicole Cloutier: okay. Everyone should go watch it. Okay. Everyone go watch it. But yeah, she's out of touch and then she has character growth as is expected and lots of stuff happens.
But yeah, she's a billionaire and it is such a funny show. Yeah. That, and it's hard to find good. Like half hour shows these days I feel like that are just like, just 30 minutes and then you can go, this one's perfect. Mm-hmm. This one's perfect. Mm-hmm. Everybody watch it? Mm-hmm.
Rachel Duncan: You heard it? Yeah.
Nicole Cloutier: What you were saying before reminds me too of this idiom that.
I think it was like never, never die. The richest man. Mm-hmm. Like the idea that you shouldn't die just with the most money possible and give it to everybody like you should at a certain point, like just start [00:25:00] giving back, like you make enough until. Like you are wealthy and then you give back. But I don't know who to attribute that to.
Rachel Duncan: Yeah, there, well, there's a book out, it's called Die Broke and, and there's some strategy with that. You know, like the planners that I know it's Yeah. Often like more advantageous for the whole family. You know, intergenerationally to be dispersing it throughout, you know, older age. Mm-hmm. So, yeah, I think it's, yeah.
Then what do you have to show for it?
Nicole Cloutier: Yeah.
Rachel Duncan: Yeah.
Nicole Cloutier: Well, that's something I, I'm trying to decide how much I wanna divulge to public about my family, but yeah. In like a lot of the elders in my life, right, they have this belief that you should only give after you die. You leave it to people, you leave it to.
Descendants. You leave it to donations, but you don't give while you're alive because then you might need it. Right? So this is the belief. A lot of them hold, but. Also like a lot of the people they admire don't actually like the [00:26:00] conservatives in my life, right? Mm-hmm. Like that they admire the Trumps. I don't think they practice that.
They don't wait until they die to give to their children.
Rachel Duncan: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But yet
Nicole Cloutier: there are people who love them. I mean,
Rachel Duncan: on a practical level, we're living longer and our old age is getting more and more expensive. So there's, I've definitely seen examples of older folks overgiving over supporting in a way that puts them in danger because.
Aging. The dying process is really expensive and it's so, I don't know. There is a balance there for sure. Yeah.
Nicole Cloutier: Yeah, absolutely. And we should absolutely take care of our older populations Ramit. Oh, Sethi. Yeah. We had a YouTube video the other day about the way that the boomer generation got rich. Like those ways aren't necessarily available anymore.
Rachel Duncan: Yeah, it's a huge difference. I feel like it, it's an undercurrent in so much of my work. Like, I mean I work with folks of all ages, but probably a majority millennials, and so often it's difference of the millennial versus boomer economic experience has just been so incredibly [00:27:00] different and can be not only practically different, but can bring up.
Relationship problems. I've had clients who are sponsored by their parents because like, we can't keep talking like this is kind of ruining our relationship. Yeah. You know, 'cause they, I think that boomers were really quietly supported by the system and they didn't know, 'cause it was so quiet, you know, the fact that their education was subsidized.
The fact that they were, you know, working in professional careers during huge booms, you know, economic. Stock value and stuff like that, you know, they just happened to them. It was a rising tide. But what's tricky, and there's actually some interesting economic research that shows this, is that a lot of folks who have wealth believe they got it on their own.
Nicole Cloutier: Mm-hmm.
Rachel Duncan: Not seeing the systemic support that got them there. And when people are in that place, they tend to see people who don't have wealth as an individual responsibility because they feel that they got there out of individual responsibility, which is, it was a silent support. They didn't know [00:28:00] that college shouldn't have been $5.
Right. It just was for them, it was so subsidized now with millennials like, well, we went to college, or, I'm just saying like that was definitely a pressure put on me and an expectation of, I think the. Other students around me. Oh, well you, you work hard in college and you get a job and it's all just gonna work out.
'cause that is literally what happened to the boomers. So, you know, let's give boomers some slack. They did those steps and it worked out for them, not just because of their own volition, but because the system was happened to be supporting them during that. And you know, us millennials are finding a very different experience with cost of housing and cost of everything and wages not keeping up.
Mm-hmm. So, yeah, the way we're going about wealth. Is probably, yeah, the vehicles are different, right? Mm-hmm. I mean, pensions are gone, right? Yeah. So when they, you know, boomers of by and large, you know, a lot of them have pensions. Those aren't even available anymore. So it's, it's definitely, I think there's more variety.
I think it's harder.
Nicole Cloutier: But you think it's possible? [00:29:00]
Rachel Duncan: Yes, you've seen it. I do. I've seen it. I've even lived it a little nickles. Yeah. So yeah, I mean we, in my story, you know, I've definitely had some lucky breaks and we. Capitalize on those lucky breaks. Yeah, and it's been interesting creating a different relationship with money and wealth than I was raised with.
Nicole Cloutier: Mm-hmm.
Rachel Duncan: It does feel complicated. How can I care for myself and my future and feel like I'm also a good person in this world and contributing to causes and supporting people, but not in a way that puts us in jeopardy. Yeah. It's a constant balance.
Nicole Cloutier: What does having wealth look like to you? Do you, yeah, let's start there first.
What does having wealth look like to you?
Rachel Duncan: There is this feeling of stability. Right. This thing that like there's this wealth that is growing on its own. Like that definition that I loved from that was the 1828 definition. Yeah. You know, it's not just making money, it's that there's kind of this pot, [00:30:00] this box, this vessel.
Of value because it's not even money anywhere. If it's invested, it's invested. It's just a tub of value and that it is just kind of quietly pulsing and growing and sometimes shrinking, but it's kind of its own engine and sometimes we contribute to it and sometimes we pull from it. But it's kind of this interesting engine that is going on its own.
It's a bizarre experience. It's so different from like cash flow. Like cash flow was a different thing. Cashflow is so important and we need to work on that first. But then the wealth is kind of, yeah. It's just, it's different and it is wild when it grows on its own.
Nicole Cloutier: Yeah.
Rachel Duncan: It almost feels weird. It's like, wait a second, did I, I didn't earn that.
And even from a tax standpoint, it is sort of like unearned income. Yeah. Like that is like how it's. Looked at. So, you know, and you also don't pay taxes on it until you sell those investments. So it's just, it's bizarre. I'm still like wrapping my head around like, what does it mean to be an investor? I look at the numbers, it's very wild, and I think why [00:31:00] folks with wealth, this perception of, oh, that they, you know.
Don't really earn it. Well, that's true. Like the value just grows kind of no matter what they do. And I do think there can be a barrier to entry. You do need that seed money or whatever it is to get started. And we were in a position, we were able to create that ourselves, and neither my husband received inheritance of any kind.
So yeah, it just comes down to finding high paying work. It's like the most boring answer. Because we don't all wanna do that work.
Nicole Cloutier: Yeah. That's what Ramit says. It's income. Yeah. Income is one you're in
Rachel Duncan: control of. It kind of is somewhat, you know. Yeah. I don't have really in control of it, but you know, I think also like the millennial dream is, we were told, oh, follow your heart.
Yeah. I was like, what if my heart is writing poetry? Just mine. That's what I meant for you.
Nicole Cloutier: Yeah. That's why. And then you go to marketing. 'cause it's like, well I gotta make money. Yeah. If you, I don't think people. So I think we would say like, [00:32:00] I want a million dollars. Right? Like, I want an inheritance, but I don't know if that's really what we want, right?
Like we want what it means and what it creates. So if you take money out of the equation, like what does wealth look like to you?
Rachel Duncan: I think it's stability. I think it's the sense that I'm gonna be safe.
Nicole Cloutier: Yeah.
Rachel Duncan: Maybe safety actually more than stability. It is a sense of safety. Can I take some time off work and still be housed and fed?
You know, that's one. Another one is just options.
Nicole Cloutier: Mm.
Rachel Duncan: Right. If I were to have a million dollars, then I could do volunteering or do work that didn't pay as well that I really loved. You know, I think it speaks to options. But you want a million dollars or do you wanna spend a million dollars? 'cause those are really different things.
'cause if you have a million dollars, if you're gonna keep that million dollars, guess how much you can spend of that while keeping $40,000 a year? That would be, there's this rule of 25. A million dollars generally stays a million dollars. Let's [00:33:00] imagine it's all invested. You can pull 4% of that a year. Huh.
So a million dollars really, if you wanted to use that and live on it and not chip away at it, you can use 40,000 a year. So tell, do you wanna live on $40,000 a year?
Nicole Cloutier: It's enough if you own your home free. Totally. Yeah.
Rachel Duncan: Depends on the whole, the rest of the situation you are right. Or if you're working as well as having the million.
But I think we kinda like million dollars and we get stars in our eyes and what's really sad is we start to break it apart. It is a lot of money and it also isn't when you're looking at the long term
Nicole Cloutier: Yeah.
Rachel Duncan: Of wealth. So like, I don't know, we're getting in the weeds a little bit. Yeah. But I think this is so important.
Like when we think about retirement planning, this, this rule of 25 kind of plays out where if you look at what is your life cost in a year, just a your normal average year or what you would like it to cost, right? Maybe you'd like to be able to do a few more things. So get that number in your head for a year and multiply that by 25.
Nicole Cloutier: Hmm.
Rachel Duncan: That's your goal for retirement [00:34:00] of net worth or in your retirement, and then that means you can retire and that amount, you can use 4% and that amount won't go down. Right. So it's a big number.
Nicole Cloutier: Yeah. You're like, holy crap, I'm never gonna retire.
Rachel Duncan: But when you start investing and you don't touch it Yeah.
Like it does because you're not, it's not just your dollars you're putting in there. Like you do need to seed it and get it started, but. It's this, it's this little creature that starts, that grows on its own.
Nicole Cloutier: Yeah.
Rachel Duncan: So it's really more about time. It's like the length of time, you know? And yes, there's ups and downs with a market, but overall it tends to go up if you can like, wait.
I think another thing I think of with those two words is wealth is slow and rich is quick. And this idea of like slow money, can you put a thousand dollars in a CD or an investment and not touch it? Can it be slow? Yeah. Like that's where the wealth comes from. Can you hold [00:35:00] property and not sell it? It's a slower thing and we need both.
We need fast money and slow money. Your fast money is your groceries and your gas and your day-to-day living. And then you also have slow money, which is like the investments and that wealth building stuff.
Nicole Cloutier: Yeah.
Rachel Duncan: And they're connected, but they're kind of different.
Nicole Cloutier: Yeah. I'm sorry. No, no. This is excellent.
It just money is emotional and I'm reacting. I hope you're in good hands.
Rachel Duncan: Yes. Yeah. I think sometimes we need some of this like straight up conversation, right? Yeah. Because it's this thing we're not talking about enough. I wish I had known that number years ago. I would've made some different decisions.
Yeah. My just not sharing. A lot of this information with each other.
Nicole Cloutier: No, we're definitely not like we do not talk about it and I am gonna be 40 this year and it's like, I know. Welcome to the best decade. I'm excited. And also I wish I could go back 20 years and be like, Hey Nicole, here's some different decisions you should make.[00:36:00]
Rachel Duncan: Don't we wish?
Nicole Cloutier: I remember thinking one of the decisions I made that I kind of regret is I had. Student debt and I paid it all off as fast as I could from undergrad, which is not necessarily bad, but I think if I was planning it better, like that was such a low. Interest rate. I was like 3% or something back.
My graduate school loans, which I still have, are like 6%. I wish I had held onto that 3% a little bit longer and done other things with that money I threw at it.
Rachel Duncan: Yeah, I know. And it's like we just need, I think about that a lot. Like my 25-year-old self, I was in a similar position with a very low cost loan and.
Like, why wasn't I putting at least something in an IRA when I was very proud of staying debt free and paying responsibly, paying off that student loan bit by bit, but like I was just always breaking even. Yeah. Which is what my parents were doing, you know? And like I wrote about this in a blog a few months ago.
I had saved up a $1,500 and I walked into a bank. I was like, this is what grownups [00:37:00] do. You know? Go in there. And I talked to a banker, what should I do with all this money I've got? And he was pretty dismissive. He's like, yeah, just keep it in savings. You don't have enough money to do anything with. And that was the end of the conversation.
And I understand now what he was saying is like, yeah, just keep that in savings. You don't have enough to invest, but what a missed opportunity to sit down with me and be like, oh no. Okay, so where are your goals? And like doing a little bit of planning, obviously you probably wanted a planner, not a banker, but I didn't know.
I felt like a banker was the one. Yeah. And just like, yeah, what a missed opportunity.
Nicole Cloutier: Yeah. You
Rachel Duncan: know, when we're younger and I think what's hard though is folks like right now in their twenties, you know, maybe aren't not really even earning enough to be able to save. So for, of course we can say, oh, you should be putting $50 a month into X, Y, and Z, but like literally they can't afford that.
You know? We really did a lot catching up in my 30. You know, just when we were earning more and things were a little bit steadier, but like Oh, sure. Hindsight, but could you have [00:38:00] really swung it, you know, to actually accelerate savings or investments? I don't know that,
Nicole Cloutier: yeah. We're having this conversation and it's an hour long.
The feeling that keeps hitting me as we're talking is like there's no way to talk about everyone's situation. No. In this too. Because there have been times in my life as well when I would've heard this conversation that we're having and been like, this doesn't apply to me at all. Totally. 'cause like I am living.
Unpredictable paycheck to unpredictable paycheck.
Rachel Duncan: Completely. Yeah. And like
Nicole Cloutier: investing was the furthest thing from my mind.
Rachel Duncan: Right. And I think when it comes down to it, people really know what they can and can't do. Like it's not a financial literacy problem. It is often, I mean, maybe that's like a tiny part of it, but like it is like.
Oh, who do I talk to? Like you said, like it would've just been good to just talk to somebody. What do I do with a student loan? You know, I think we just need more people in our life other than our parents to talk about this stuff with, and there's such variety. There's just no formula that works for everybody.
Nicole Cloutier: Yeah, it
Rachel Duncan: does. Like we
Nicole Cloutier: think about even the pivot to. [00:39:00] From pensions as we were talking about earlier. Mm-hmm. Like my parents don't know how to talk to me about saving 'cause Well, my parents don't have pensions, but my grandfather doesn't know how to talk to me about savings because he has a pension.
Rachel Duncan: He didn't have to my parents as well, like they were, you know, quote, not good with money and they kind of didn't have to be because they worked for the government and they had pensions so.
I didn't have to think about it, huh? Okay. Deep breath. I know. Wealth, wealth, wealth, wealth.
Nicole Cloutier: One quote that we pulled out in our research that is kind of fun is wealth consists not in having great possessions, but in having few wants by a ticus. Ooh,
Rachel Duncan: when was that?
Nicole Cloutier: Ticus, ancient Greece. Oh, wow. Yeah. Wealth consists not in having great possessions, but in having few wants.
Rachel Duncan: Few wants. Mm-hmm.
Nicole Cloutier: Your
Rachel Duncan: needs are taken care of.
Nicole Cloutier: Yeah. But that, that is the difference too, I think, between having and spending, right? Like it's not necessary to, [00:40:00] I think what this is saying, you know, it's not about having like a Lamborghini, but in having like. You and the etymology. The etymology of want is lack.
So that's interesting too, is if wealth is having few lacks, few things you lack. Mm-hmm. So you're not wanting for anything. Yeah.
Rachel Duncan: Base is covered. I mean, it speaks to the idea of safety. Mm-hmm. And your safety is covered, whatever that means.
Nicole Cloutier: And also there's that happiness in there, that contentment. Mm-hmm.
Right? Mm-hmm.
Rachel Duncan: Like
Nicole Cloutier: having what you have. I always struggle so much talking about this because I never wanna tell anyone, like, I don't wanna fall into that. Like, don't get the avocado toast. Like if that's what you want, go for it. But I do think there's something to be said too, and like that balance of safety and contentment.
Rachel Duncan: And it's kind of the antidote to consumerism. I think being kind of anti consumerist or really holding back on spending, you can really only do that [00:41:00] when you have everything you need. Yeah. To live. So it is a place of privilege, but it's definitely a road that I've been on. I don't participate in. Black Friday, I really don't buy new things.
And you know, I can only do that because I have my bases covered. But it does really get into values and what do you truly want? And the sparkle chasing is real and out there it takes some time and detox money to get on the other side of that and realize, oh, that rollercoaster is rough.
Nicole Cloutier: Yeah. You know, being
Rachel Duncan: in a state of contentment when your needs are met is a pretty nice place to be.
Nicole Cloutier: Yeah. Well, and I think a lot of times our, especially with social media and marketing, right? As someone who's in marketing, the feeling of lack, it's not really yours. Like it's been kind of sold to you,
Rachel Duncan: inventing problems you didn't know you had. Right? Like apparently my bones will crumble into powder if I don't buy a weighted fist.
Nicole Cloutier: Oh my goodness.
Rachel Duncan: Oh, just wait till your forties, Nicole. That is. That's
Nicole Cloutier: everything is [00:42:00] weighted for. The ads are weighted vest. Yeah. I'm just gonna go on
Rachel Duncan: more walks and lift weights. Yeah.
Nicole Cloutier: More walks, lift weights.
Rachel Duncan: Carry. I can carry children. Carry groceries. Fine.
Nicole Cloutier: Yeah. So I guess the main advice to give as a marketer is be careful.
Get what you want, but make sure it's your want.
Rachel Duncan: Yeah. Make sure it's your want. I And I think there's a very. Sexy thing going on with just consent based marketing. Here's what I have to sell. Would you like it? Like I, I, I try to lean into that. Like I just sent a note with, you know, we're kind of recording this on the week of Black Friday.
You know, I'm just, I'm not participating in Black Friday. Here's my, just a reminder, here's the things I'm doing. I just don't, I don't like this time urgency just for me. I really don't. Yeah. I have nothing against people who do it, but just because I'm talking about like slowing your role with. Spending and then building a relationship with money.
It's a longer term quieter thing and stuff. It's like, bye now. I, it just doesn't actually align with my ethos. So I'm kind of for the, I don't know. This is for the first time I'm like, me, here's what I [00:43:00] got. Nothing's on sale. This is what's happening.
Nicole Cloutier: Yeah.
Rachel Duncan: I'm still here for you because that's the thing.
'cause I'm here for the long run. I'm not here for the flash sale. I'm here for the long run in this long relationship with money.
Nicole Cloutier: Yeah. That's
Rachel Duncan: what I'm interested in.
Nicole Cloutier: Yeah. And do you mean that not participating in Black Friday as a buyer?
Rachel Duncan: Oh, as a seller. Both sides. Both sides actually.
Nicole Cloutier: Yeah.
Rachel Duncan: Trying to trade it just like a regular old day.
Nicole Cloutier: I love that. I've also decided not to have any Black Friday sale this year. Hmm. Mostly just 'cause I'm tired. Yeah.
Rachel Duncan: Also, probably for you and me, our time to shine is January. Yeah. And so from a very real marketing perspective, I'm putting my, my effort in January,
Nicole Cloutier: you need to take a break. It's like a whole other conversation when you run your own business, it's hard to take a break.
It's hard to be like, it's okay. I know. Okay. 'cause we wanna be at Build Wealth. No, that's right. That's what we're after. Okay. Wrapping up, just a couple questions. If wealth could be used. For good or for evil,[00:44:00]
how do you want it to be used for good or for evil? And tell me what that means.
Rachel Duncan: Certainly for good. Again, I think sometimes we get pigeonholed and say, oh, it's philanthropy.
Nicole Cloutier: Hmm.
Rachel Duncan: And that can be good. There's still so much classism in philanthropy.
Nicole Cloutier: Hmm.
Rachel Duncan: I think there's a problem there. No, I don't have a solution there.
I just question if that's your ticket into Heaven.
Nicole Cloutier: Have you seen the Good Place? I haven't
Rachel Duncan: really got into it, but yeah, a little bit.
Nicole Cloutier: I'm obviously obsessed with Maya Rudolph 'cause she's in both shows I've mentioned today. Yeah. Yeah. That is part of the plot, right? Is that it's really, really hard to be a good human these days.
'cause like you can give away as much money as you want, but it's like intention behind it. Who actually gets it? Like, there's so much outta our control when it comes to philanthropy.
Rachel Duncan: Yeah. And there's some real implicit classism there. So there's, there's the, that, I dunno, I think there can be some creative and more quiet ways to disperse your wealth in a way that like Yeah.
[00:45:00] Provides for safety and stability for more. People and causes in this earth. Yeah. I think one thing to sort of, what I wonder again is perception. Yeah. You know, are you doing it outta perception? Are you doing it out of redistributing and support?
Nicole Cloutier: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. And also, what systems do we need to change so we don't have to keep saving people.
Rachel Duncan: Right. Is it my job or do we, you know. Pay the taxes for. Yeah, that's, that is a whole other thing. Especially when a lot of wealth planning is tax strategy and paying less taxes. Mm mm-hmm. So it's like, oh, so then you can. Distribute yourself. 'cause you'll, you know what people want. Okay. We're getting political, but there's like a little bit of that where, you know, or, or when, you know, there's foundations that have restricted grants where the foundation decides how the money is spent instead of the nonprofit who's receiving it.
Like there's, that's interesting. You know?
Nicole Cloutier: Yeah, I was having this [00:46:00] argument with somebody the other day about organ donating. Donating, yeah. Donating organs. Yeah. Organ donor. And the person I was talking to was like, well, I would only wanna be an organ donor if I could choose who got it. Like I want it to be a child.
Oh gosh. I'm like, I don't think you can do that.
Rachel Duncan: Like let the docs decide that. Like let the experts decide.
Nicole Cloutier: That's my position. Mm-hmm. Okay. So what do we want wealth to mean now? Like of all the definitions we've looked at, what kind of mishmash of them or every, anything we've talked about, like what feels good to you?
What do you want people to have in their minds as the definition of wealth?
Rachel Duncan: It's such a hard question. I keep coming back to safety. Mm-hmm.
Nicole Cloutier: Like
Rachel Duncan: basic needs met is in there.
Nicole Cloutier: Mm-hmm.
Rachel Duncan: Value that grows on its own. There's that component, like there's a value that grows on its own, and that can be value seen in lots of ways.
[00:47:00] Safety value that grows on its own. Maybe a little permission slip like,
Nicole Cloutier: hmm.
Rachel Duncan: Wealth doesn't have to be like a bad thing. Right? I think it's tricky.
Nicole Cloutier: It's
Rachel Duncan: an okay thing to want. I don't have a tidy definition. I'll send it to you if I think of one.
Nicole Cloutier: Yeah. Yeah. They
Rachel Duncan: think it's okay to think about. It's okay to think about.
It's okay to want stability. It's okay to want, safety's lovely to want to be generous as well, but really all roads lead to safety when we talk about money. 'cause it is what usually. Is the key.
Nicole Cloutier: Mm-hmm.
Rachel Duncan: To a lot of safety.
Nicole Cloutier: Yeah. No, I think that that resonates with how I want to think about it. I think that that definition is the one most likely to help me build wealth.
Like I would love to strike that out. Yeah. You know, like, let's get rid of comparison wealth.
Rachel Duncan: Yes, because actually, and even in the modern definition, there isn't like a certain dollar amount that it equals. Mm-hmm. It really, it's so subjective and [00:48:00] that's great. It's
Nicole Cloutier: no, yes, you're right. It's rare in these episodes that I like the current definition more than previous ones, but I do like the ambiguity of the modern definition.
You know, it's abundant supply. And I like also bringing in like more than money, right? Like wealth of knowledge I think is such a great phrase and mm-hmm. Just feeling abundant and happy and full of wellbeing. Yeah. In any, in many areas of your life.
Rachel Duncan: I like the word value is in there, right? Just like so many things can be valuable.
Nicole Cloutier: If you could have a wealth of anything besides money, what would be your thing?
Rachel Duncan: Musical instruments. Ooh. I'm a real geek about instruments. I just love weird instruments. I love playing around with 'em. That's my other side. Love is music. Yeah, I would love to just buy weird, fancy instruments and play them and, ah.
Bring them to jam sessions and have other people play them and like I [00:49:00] would love to have a theremin, like I would just love to have a room filled with weird musical instruments. That's the wealth I'm looking for.
Nicole Cloutier: Yes. A weird instrument room dedicated. Yes. Rachel, I have to tell you, we've been helping my grandmother downsize and among her stuff.
She has two, like 1901 violins. What? That her like father brought over from Germany, like when he moved And do you think
Rachel Duncan: they're valuable?
Nicole Cloutier: I don't know. I, my brain is like, yes, these must be worth like $20,000 each and they're probably not. It's probably like way more sentimental, but,
Rachel Duncan: well, it could be. I know one of those things with violence is that they have to be played.
So if they haven't been played, they do kind of wear out
Nicole Cloutier: and they're very afraid. Like all the strings are broken. Yeah.
Rachel Duncan: Oh, I'm here in Antique road show.
Nicole Cloutier: Oh, go. They'll be like, this is purely sentimental. Get outta here.
Rachel Duncan: This is worth a nickel.
Nicole Cloutier: Well, Rachel, this has been lovely. Thank you for being here with me and doing it.
Where can people learn more about you? [00:50:00]
Rachel Duncan: Yeah. Money is complex and I love sitting in the muck. Like I don't have clear answers, but I actually think sitting in the muck helps us the most and then we find our own way to clarity. But yes, where you can find me, everything is at moneyhealingclub.com. On Instagram at Money Healing Club, and if you go to my website, there's a popup for a free mindful spending email course that I've really poured my heart and everything into.
And I love getting your emails with what you have learned from it and what you're noticing about just tracking your spending desires. So I think that's my big passion, is actually learning about ourselves from how we spend.
Nicole Cloutier: Yeah. Rachel is brilliant. We have worked one-on-one. Rachel has helped me through some stuff, and I highly recommend.
Wow. And we'll put all those links in the show notes.
Rachel Duncan: And if you find my website, highly navigable. That is because of Nicole. Thank
Nicole Cloutier: you. Oh, Rachel, thank you. Thank you, Nicole.
Rachel Duncan: That's the Money Healing Club podcast, everyone. A [00:51:00] now a little honest money moment because hey, that is what I do here. I want you to know that it costs about $400 to produce each episode. And right now that is funded through my other financial therapy work. So my ask is this, if this show has helped you feel even a little less ashamed, less alone, more grounded in your money story, I'd love for you to support it financially.
Go on over to moneyhealingclub.com/podcast and you'll see the button to contribute to the show. Think of it as helping keep this a soft place to land that's open to everyone. We are also always looking for new listener questions and stories to feature on an upcoming episode. So you can go to that same page, moneyhealingclub.com/podcast. Go to the big orange button where you can record your story, your question right from your phone or [00:52:00] browser.
And if you're craving more support, there's lots of other financial therapy goodness happening at moneyhealingclub.com. From group programs to courses to working one-on-one with me, you don't have to do this alone. Production support for the podcast by Sydney Harbosky at sydneyharbosky.com.
We are also a proud member of the Feminist Podcasters Collective,
where creators like me are building podcasts to make a better world together. I will see you next time.