S2 E42: 🧠 Understanding Your Financial Trauma w/ Rahkim Sabree
EPISODE SUMMARY
What if your money stress isn't a personal failure, but a wound shaped by systems bigger than you? On this episode of the Money Healing Club podcast, Rachel welcomes Rahkim Sabree, author of "Overcoming Financial Trauma," for a conversation about how financial trauma lives in our bodies, communities, and histories. They explore the six sources of financial trauma, the benefit cliff that keeps people stuck, and what happened when Rahkim lost his home to a fire 30 days before his book launched. This episode validates the collective nature of financial stress and offers real frameworks for healing.
💬 "Many times when we talk about financial trauma, we talk about it through a first person lens that says, 'I experienced this thing.' But when we take a step back, our financial socialization keeps us very isolated. My goal is to help people detach their self-worth from this phenomenon and view it as more of a societal issue."
Key Takeaways:
Financial trauma is any instance observed or experienced that negatively impacts how you view, interact with, or believe about money
The six sources include: genetic/generational, vicarious/observational, workplace, poverty/financial instability, systemic/institutional, and acute financial events
Financial fawning in the workplace means regularly crossing your own boundaries to stay employed (and it's a survival strategy)
The benefit cliff creates a trap where earning $1 more can cost you thousands in support, preventing economic mobility
Our trauma brains may be operating on "old software" while navigating economic systems built on outdated foundations
Co-regulation practices (like collective breathing) can help us stay present through financial stress
About Rahkim Sabree: Rahkim is a nationally recognized financial therapist, speaker, and Forbes contributor. His new book "Overcoming Financial Trauma" introduces a framework for understanding and healing financial wounds, not just managing money better. In October 2025, just 30 days before his book launched, Rahkim lost his home to a fire, experiencing firsthand the very trauma he'd been writing about.
⏰ EPISODE BREAKDOWN:
03:00 | Financial trauma as a societal issue: Why isolation around money keeps us from seeing the systemic nature of financial stress.
05:30 | The six sources of financial trauma: Breaking down genetic, observational, workplace, poverty, systemic, and acute trauma.
14:00 | The benefit cliff: When $1 more means losing everything How support systems trap people by cutting off entirely instead of gradually.
22:00 | When the book became real: Losing his home to fire Rahkim's experience of homelessness, vandalism, and trauma 30 days before launching a book on financial trauma.
35:00 | Summon Qi: Somatic practices from childhood How Rahkim's grandfather taught nervous system regulation through drumming and martial arts.
43:00 | Co-regulation on stage: The power of collective breathing before delivering a keynote while processing active trauma.
📚 Resources Mentioned
🌎 Connect with Rahkim Sabree:
Website: https://www.rahkimsabree.com/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/rahkimsabree
☎️ Join the Conversation!
Have you ever felt isolated in your money struggles, only to discover others were going through the same thing? What would it mean to view your financial challenges as systemic rather than personal failures? The Money Healing Club podcast wants to hear your story:
https://www.moneyhealingclub.com/podcast
🎧 Your next listen:
Check out our episode with Haley & Justin Brown-Woods on debt.
https://www.moneyhealingclub.com/podcast/s2e37
💝 Support the Podcast
Help keep the Money Healing Club podcast going! If this show has helped you feel less alone or more grounded with money, please consider contributing: https://www.moneyhealingclub.com/podcast
🌟 Want more help?
🤑 Free Email Course: Curb impulse spending with compassion and mindfulness at moneyhealingclub.com/challenge
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🧠 Understanding Your Financial Trauma w/ Rahkim Sabree
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[00:00:00]
Rachel Duncan: Welcome to the Money Healing Club podcast. I'm your host, Rachel Duncan. I'm a certified financial therapist and art therapist and founder of the Money Healing Club, which is a place where even the most financially avoidant folks can get therapy informed support. Reminder, this podcast is for educational purposes only
and does not replace mental health care or financial advice. Please take care with where you get your advice. So the underlying thing I'm always working with both in this podcast and in my financial therapy work is this. What if your stress response to money isn't a personal failure, but more of a wound, something we can look at as a form of trauma, even.
Money, stress can feel really isolating, but it's actually a collective experience when we can zoom out and see it systemically. Today's guest, I have Rahkim Sabree, who's a [00:01:00] nationally recognized financial therapist, speaker, forbes contributor, whose work sits right at the intersection of money and mental health and culture.
We talk about his wonderful new book, overcoming Financial Trauma, where he introduces a framework that helps individuals and organizations understand and heal their financial wounds, not just manage their money better, but actually redefine what success means in the first place and where harm comes from.
What I appreciate most about Rahkim is he doesn't just talk about money as a numbers thing. It's not a spreadsheet problem. He talks about money as something that lives in our nervous systems. In our communities, in our histories. In this conversation, he and I explore what financial trauma actually is, how it shows up, not just individually but systemically, and why so many of us feel alone in something that is actually deeply collective.
We talk about generational patterns, workplace dynamics, and the benefit cliff, [00:02:00] capitalism, the outdated software many of us are running when it comes to money. This talk is so layered and I hope very validating. Just a quick note, in this episode, we talk about housing loss due to fire, homelessness, poverty, systemic financial harm, and experiences of break-ins.
As always, please take care of yourself and pause or skip this if you need to. So if you've ever thought, why does money feel so charged for me? Or why do I feel like I should have this figured out by now? I think this conversation could really help. Let's talk about what we don't usually say when we talk about financial trauma with the guy who wrote the book.
Rahkim Sabree
Rachel Duncan: Rahkim Sabree, welcome to the Money Healing Club podcast.
Rahkim Sabree: Thank you. Thank you.
Rachel Duncan: So we have a first question. We just wanna dive right in. Could you tell me how does financial trauma affect communities?
Rahkim Sabree: I really love this question [00:03:00] because, I think my take on financial trauma views financial trauma as a societal issue more so than a personal one, right? So a lot of times when we talk about financial trauma, we talk about it through a first person lens that says, I experienced X, Y, Z thing, right? Um, as it relates to money.
When we kind of take a step back and look at the various factors that influence financial trauma down to how we're marketed to right down to what conditions create our responses to the financial stress and the different stimuli that we experience, many times these are systemic. And many times these are touching multiple people or, groups of people in communities at the same time.
What's interesting or what I've found to be interesting anyway, is that our financial socialization keeps us very isolated when it comes to discussing money.
Rachel Duncan: Right.
Rahkim Sabree: moneys become a taboo. And like, I [00:04:00] don't want other people to know that I'm struggling or that I've gone through this thing. And so, uh, either I won't talk about it or maybe I'll posture in a way that, kind of makes me appear to be doing better than I am.
My goal and, and kind of building on the, the work around financial trauma is to help people kind of detach their, like self-worth and what they may perceive as personal failures from this phenomenon that we refer to as financial trauma and view it as more of a societal issue. Through the lens of capitalism, through the lens of systemic financial harm through the lens of poverty and the way that it has been manufactured, right?
We live in a, a world where I think we, we now have a trillionaire, right? But we also have people who are hungry. We also have people who are homeless. And so what, what systems [00:05:00] are in place that allow for this to exist?
Rachel Duncan: Yeah.
And then walking this road as an individual, right? And we have this layer of, well, we can't talk about it. So while there's all these systemic factors, we take it as personal, an individual, because we're not allowed to really see or, or discuss the more structural aspects of financial trauma. And actually, could we just back up a little bit, and, you know, we kind of just rushed into financial trauma, and this might be a new term for folks listening.
Could you just give us what's your, what's your quick definition of financial trauma yourself?
Rahkim Sabree: Yeah, I, I define financial trauma as any instance observed or experienced that has a negative impact on the way someone views, interacts with or believes about money. And what I think really like about this definition, and there are various, uh, definitions out there is that there's an emphasis placed on that observed piece.
And so when I break down financial trauma, I talk about it through six lenses, and one of those [00:06:00] lenses is the vicarious, the observational lens, right? So it's not just what happened to us, but it's what we observe happening around us. The example that I like to give, most frequently, it's probably how we see people who are homeless, treated right?
Many times, uh, the homeless population or the unhoused. Are treated as kind of like these social pariahs, they are viewed as, oh, if I give them money, they're gonna go spend them on drugs. Or if I give them money, they're gonna go spend it on alcohol. Or they had something happen in their life where they messed up.
Right. Their, their situation is their fault and that they should be doing more to get out of their situation.
Rachel Duncan: There's that individualism again. Exactly.
Rahkim Sabree: And so I think when we pull back the layers and we process, what this is telling us as individuals or what this is telling our nervous system is that, uh, this idea of [00:07:00] financial failure
Rachel Duncan: Hmm.
Rahkim Sabree: is unsafe, which is not inaccurate.
And, but to the extent that when we look at it from this lens of the haves versus the have nots. We don't wanna be in the category of the have nots, even if we technically qualify as a have not, we want to posture and pretend that we are so far removed from that reality so that we're not treated in the way that individuals who are clearly defined or labeled as that are treated.
Rachel Duncan: On one hand I could say, oh, well of course it's, it would be unsafe. And, health implications and all of that from, you know, losing a home, which is true. But it's also, I can't be viewed as that. And that that is just as strong because
Rahkim Sabree: Right.
Rachel Duncan: we're such social creatures. and I
Rahkim Sabree: Right.
Rachel Duncan: think that comes into the, the familial domain, like you talked about, like the [00:08:00] transmutation of, of these messages from generation to generation.
You know, often probably all of us have some intergenerational story of losing it all. I mean, such a, this is a thing that has happened and you know, probably the last three or four generations likely in your family line. And so this message of like, you could lose it all. You could lose it all, don't lose it all. The story of struggle that is such a common human experience. You know, we're, we're carrying that in our bones, which you also talk about, which is like the epigenetic domain. We got family domain, we got epigenetic domain, you know, because trauma is transmuted through epigenetics. I, I think of, when I think of trauma, I think it is learning.
It's a form of learning, right? It's like, don't do that. That is super dangerous. So we're gonna like, make sure, we want us to be safe. We want our, the next generation to be safe. So like, this dangerous thing happened, so avoid X, Y, and Z because that's dangerous, right? We do, Hey, you know, look both ways before you cross the road, right?
All of this stuff, that's all [00:09:00] we can say, like trauma is, is also a, a path of learning for safety. You know, from the mental health standpoint though, where trauma becomes, kind of maladaptive is where we perceive threat when there is none. we overreact to threat that may or may not be there? Right.
And that's where we might feel stifled or avoid a topic completely. We get into black and white thinking and avoid it completely. And because of maybe financial trauma that had happened a couple generations before, I think part of this process is, is that updated for now?
Rahkim Sabree: Right, and I think I, I, I love your phrasing there because so I'm reading a book right now, called Thinking Fast and Slow.
Rachel Duncan: Oh yeah. I've heard of
Rahkim Sabree: Phenomenal book. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a great book. But the author does a really good job. And then he, uh, I literally just read this morning, uh, a part where he's like, this is not the science.
This is like a fictitious label that I'm using in describing the science. And what he does is he breaks down, uh, system one, system two [00:10:00] thinking, system, one being our automatic responses, which I kind of talk about through the triune brain framework, and then our like concentrated responses, like what are the things that we have to exert effort into doing?
But he talks about, you know, these systems almost as if they're like a program or they're like a software. And what I love about your phrasing in that particular moment was that our trauma brains may be operating on old software and maybe across each generation we get a little bit of an upgrade, right?
Because we can add context, we can add nuance to what those upgrades look like. But the economic system that we're navigating is also a very old software, right? It's based off of the foundation of old software. And so even though we have technology advances over the last, I mean if we look at the last 10 years, technology has gone crazy.
But if you look at technology advances across generations there's been [00:11:00] significant growth. But the foundation of that system that our bodies and our minds are registering as the threat haven't changed. And so I think about like actual hardware, like an iPhone or I had an old, uh, MacBook that just stopped updating because it was just so far.
Out of date that it just like it could not update anymore. And I think, when it comes to our responses, not necessarily in the context of financial trauma by itself, but certainly, uh, financial trauma falls into this category. We have some outdated software that we haven't had the ability to update.
And I think this, concept of financial healing is our collective attempts and, you know, everybody who acts as a financial healer. Our collective attempts at helping people to upgrade their software, particularly if they're viewing their finances as a threat.
Rachel Duncan: Yeah. And it's not to say like there aren't real threats there. Like there's huge systemic problems. And also they might be different [00:12:00] now than they, you know, the
economic
system has changed as well. And like, we're not living in our parents' economy, so like there's that update as well. I think that what financial wellness looks like today, I do think substantially looks different than it looked 30 years ago.
So like there's, there's that updating as well. And, and the, and the threats and the barriers. the challenges are real and there are new ones. I do think there are new ones we talk about like cost of living, like that's, this is a newer barrier while it's always been there, it has really cranked up in recent years it is now a luxury item. our housing is now a luxury item. And for, I'd say for a lot of my clients and a lot of folks I talk to for their parents, it wasn't necessarily a luxury, it was a utility. It was expensive, but it wasn't the luxury item that it is now. So I think there's, there's that updating as well.
Know, it come, comes up a lot when I work with folks who are maybe in their thirties and forties and, and they have huge disagreements with their family, right? Because their family or their, [00:13:00] their parents or the older generation is saying, well, I don't understand why, why don't you have retirement? don't you make good money? You know? And it's because like we're actually living in really different worlds right now, um, than they did when they were younger adults and in that accumulation phase. and that's kinda the domain. Actually. I'd love to go through the six domains. I think you do such a nice job like. I think of it like these concentric circles, right? We've got the individual and then these circles going out, which is actually a common model used in social work about like the different domains of living. I was wondering, could we go through those six real quick?
Rahkim Sabree: Absolutely. Yeah. So the six sources of financial trauma, as I refer to them, are genetic or generational, right? So this is one category. So to your point earlier, that is not only the ideas that we pass down from generation to generation, that may be ideas around scarcity or vigilance, but also what is being passed down through our DNA.
So through that epigenetic lens, uh, the second is vicarious or observational. So it's what we're [00:14:00] observing and our financial socialization, that tells us what is safe and what's not safe. And, and in many cases, because we navigate capitalism, what we view as safe is having money and what we view is not safe is not having money.
The third is workplace or employment, financial trauma, which I think is really interesting to talk about. So this is where I talk about the Chantel Chapman is the coiner of this phrase with the financial fawning and what that looks like in the workplace, on both sides of the interview table, right?
So you have to fawn to a degree to get the job, but then you have to fawn to a degree to keep the job or to get the promotion. And so you're engaged in this active, uh, practice of what I refer to as economic warfare. Because you have to do what you have to do in order to get paid, right? Maybe that looks like going to happy hour.
Maybe that looks like staying late, coming in early. Maybe that looks like doing things that are not in alignment with your values of the human being, but are in alignment with the values of the [00:15:00] organization that you're working for. Or at the very least, the leader that hires you.
Rachel Duncan: Right. And it's a survival
Rahkim Sabree: And so that, that creates a class,
Rachel Duncan: Yeah. And
Rahkim Sabree: right?
It's a survival strategy,
Rachel Duncan: of fawning as when you regularly and routinely cross your own boundaries to stay safe,
Rahkim Sabree: Right.
Rachel Duncan: know, and we all do
Rahkim Sabree: And where do we do this more than in, in the workplace, right?
Rachel Duncan: Yeah.
Rahkim Sabree: So, so yeah, generational, uh, observational, um, workplace,
Rachel Duncan: we have financial
Rahkim Sabree: uh,
Rachel Duncan: poverty slash
Rahkim Sabree: yes, poverty and financial instability, right? So that is like your flagship financial trauma experience, right? You experience bankruptcy, you experience homelessness, you experience uh, too low wages, right?
So maybe you have a job, but you're just not making enough money.
Rachel Duncan: Yeah,
Rahkim Sabree: And so a lot of times people will view this particular sort of financial trauma as the personal failure,
Rachel Duncan: yeah,
Rahkim Sabree: right? And so they're just like, I, well, this is where I'm at, right? And so they'll either, I've seen people move in the direction of fighting, like becoming [00:16:00] extremely vigilant and fighting against this, or people, I hate the word, I hate to phrase it in this way, but become very passive and just kind of like.
And so I talk about this, learned helplessness.
Rachel Duncan: love that term either, but it really does describe a phenomenon of like, well, I'll, I'll never.
Rahkim Sabree: Yeah.
Rachel Duncan: Make more money or, you know,
Rahkim Sabree: Right,
Rachel Duncan: kind of, there's these internal scripts, you know, I can't, I can't ever make more money. It'd be wrong to make more money. you know, there's, there's so much self worth tied into this.
And that's probably also from all these other domains you've been talking about, right? That the lessons I've absorbed about what I can and cannot do on an income scale. These are
Rahkim Sabree: right.
Rachel Duncan: very deep things.
Rahkim Sabree: Yeah. And so I, you know, when I talk about that one, I, I, I like to reference the, uh, the study around learned helplessness because I don't think that people arrive to that place without trying, right? Like people try and despite their effort because they don't know, the best ways maybe how to navigate [00:17:00] financial systems.
Or maybe they do know the best ways, but, and this is, you know, another source that, you know, we haven't talked about yet, the systemic
Rachel Duncan: Yeah.
Rahkim Sabree: or, uh, institutional barriers that exist, prevent them from making progress. Then they're just like, well, you know, then if I do, then if I don't, I'm just gonna make the best of the situation that I'm in.
Rachel Duncan: I want to hang out in the systemic part because, because especially in the United States, we do not have a graduated system of support. It is a cutoff system where if you earn below this amount
Rahkim Sabree: Mm-hmm. Right.
Rachel Duncan: you get support. If you earn above this exact dollar amount, you get no support. it makes navigating the system so difficult, right?
Because the support is support, but then, oh, if I literally earn $1 over this amount, it won't get any of it. And that, I think, adds into the the struggle of, of economic mobility. Because of the way the system is. You know, I've had clients who have, you [00:18:00] know, received support in different ways. It's like the, the amount of times I have to say that I am broke, the amount of ways I have to say that I am poor. Like how can I not learn any other script? Because I have to literally put it on a piece of paper, you know, many times a year to prove this. So it's like, you know, but then, oh, then then societal level, oh, why don't these people just like, you know, make more money or whatever. And it's like not understanding how, that system reinforces these scripts and really prevents a lot of economic mobility because of the structural ways it's set up.
Rahkim Sabree: Right, and that shows up. I mean, so many ways, both intimate in terms of experiences that I've had and or observed directly. And also just, you know, in my professional experience I had a conversation, I think I shared this in the book at the National Association of Social Workers, uh, Connecticut chapter.
There was a conference and I was talking to a group of social workers about financial [00:19:00] trauma through the lens of the benefit cliff.
Rachel Duncan: Um,
Rahkim Sabree: And so, you know, the social worker in the population gets it
Rachel Duncan: yeah.
Rahkim Sabree: because they're like, I see this all the time. But if you don't work in that space or you're not experiencing that directly, then it's very easy for somebody to jump on a platform like Twitter and say, oh, these people need to work harder.
They need to make more money.
Rachel Duncan: Yeah,
Rahkim Sabree: But you don't realize how much you lose in crossing that, like you said, that $1. And now it's just like, okay, now the maybe $5 that I got as a raise is not going to cover the cost of food and transportation housing that was being taken care of previously. I'm comfortable where I'm at.
I'm gonna stay right here.
Rachel Duncan: That's not worth it
Rahkim Sabree: And then
Rachel Duncan: exactly.
Rahkim Sabree: it's not from a mathematical perspec perspective, it's not worth it. It, it, it, it like the, the, you know, popular phrase, the math is not mathing, but where this becomes a very slippery slope. And, you know, going back to this idea of, uh, [00:20:00] poverty and financial instability as a source of financial trauma and that generational genetic financial.
Is that people then learn to pass on these benefits across generation. So then the expectation then becomes, I have this, I'm gonna give this benefit to my child. All you have to do to maintain the benefit is, and then they learn the in and outs of what it takes to maintain that benefit. But now it's not that the aspiration to do better is not present, it's that the fear of being on your own is overriding.
This is like a safety thing, right? It's not just, oh, I'm scared and so I'm not gonna do anything. I have like, like we talked about the cost of living. You talked about like living, being a luxury, right? Which is crazy to say. But it's something that I'm experiencing and I'm, I'm experiencing in real time.
Right? So you know, and then we talk about this off, uh, offline, but, you know, sharing with your podcast audience, in October of 2025, I lost my home to a fire. And so in. You know, coming in from, you know, financial [00:21:00] services background, understanding financial systems, understanding financial trauma, just finished writing a book on financial trauma to talk about how how to navigate these experiences.
I have this flashpoint experience, right? Everything that I own, my assets, everything going burnt up in a fire. And so in the process, I had experienced about 30 days of homelessness where I was living in a hotel. Fortunately I had a roof over my head, but technically I was homeless, right? And then I ended up in an apartment.
And when I saw the, when I initially sold the apartment, I was in love. I was like, oh, this is great. It, so it's, it's, uh, marketed as a luxury apartment. So there's that word again, luxury. I see the unit, the units that they showed me were studio and one bedroom. It's just me and my dog. So I'm like, oh, okay, well, you know, I could look at a studio, one bedroom.
I knew that I was not gonna be paying for it. My insurance was gonna be paying for it. And so I said, you know what? Let me take a look at the, uh, two bedroom. And so that's where I landed on the two bedroom. So they gimme the prices, the rent for the [00:22:00] two bedroom apartment, less than a thousand square feet, or maybe just around a thousand square feet is twice what I was paying in my mortgage
And it's considered luxury
Rachel Duncan: God.
Rahkim Sabree: twice what I was paying in my mortgage. And it's less space. So for context, I own a duplex
Rachel Duncan: Hmm.
Rahkim Sabree: for three bedrooms, one bathroom on each unit. So six bed, six bedrooms, two bathrooms in total, plus my yard, plus my, you know, uh, garage. I have two car garage. And I had 1200 square feet in each unit.
Rachel Duncan: Oh, so
Rahkim Sabree: So I've downside
Rachel Duncan: property for you?
Rahkim Sabree: it. Yeah, it was a rental property. It wasn't currently being rented.
Rachel Duncan: but still, like, that's, ugh,
Rahkim Sabree: But yes, but yes. Yes, absolutely.
Rachel Duncan: of like an asset to be lost
Rahkim Sabree: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. And so, when I look at the downsizing process for the luxury that I'm creating it in for, right, and you know, that they throw that word around because they give you amenities.
There's a gym, there's a, [00:23:00] uh, a laundry on each floor, which is not, it's two washing machines, two drying machines. There's a rooftop. Like there's all these things that they're like advertising. But I go through the walkthrough. I love the apartment. I'm like, this is what I want. This is what I'm getting, and then I'm here.
And so for the first week, I'm like loving it. But then I get into week two when I get into week three, and I start to notice that the architecture is so like, rushed, that there are imperfections everywhere.
Rachel Duncan: Yeah, slap dash.
Rahkim Sabree: So we filled up this concept of luxury, right? It's like they threw this building up as quickly as they could so that they can lease it out as quickly as they could.
And so they can sell on this, this premise of luxury. Of course they're taxing because it's a new build and a quote unquote luxury apartment, but the quality of the architecture is so shoddy,
Rachel Duncan: Yeah.
Rahkim Sabree: right? And so, you know, I'm in the millennial age demographic. So there are a lot of people within my, uh, age group [00:24:00] who are like, I want to own a house, but it's too expensive to own a house.
And fortunately I got in in 2016 so my mortgage was super low when I bought, but, I'm like, man, like it's cheaper to own a house than it is to rent. And so like this reality is, is flip flop depending on time. Is influenced by, of course, as we, you know, have been talking about the systems that we navigate.
Rachel Duncan: It. Totally. And I'm, gosh, this story is, I've been, I've been, you know, reading your stuff and watching your, your content as you've been sharing the reality of, of these, these huge transitions you've been navigating. I'm so glad you're safe. We were actually scheduled to record
Rahkim Sabree: Thank you.
Rachel Duncan: this, the day after the fire, just been like, really?
I've you know, I've just felt very connected and really feeling for you and I even noticed in your book that you had done a TEDx talk about buying this property years ago. I mean, how meta, and it was like the month that your [00:25:00] book was coming out. And I'm curious, like, yeah, we're, you know, we're talking about cost of living, which is, I, I think a really worthwhile topic and like. It, there's kind of a trauma in this, like, I gotta live somewhere. And the, the cost of it, like how do we tread water? You know, if, if, if our cost of living is so high and we're trying to make a living, and that's harder than ever. And I'm curious, just like in these last few months of navigating this true rollercoaster also after having unpacked being a homeowner and what that meant for you and your, your family and your story and, and all of that.
Like, where are you landing now on your relationship to being a homeowner?
Rahkim Sabree: This is a great question and I feel incredibly blessed. Period. Right? Like, I don't wanna put any, any sauce or anything on that. I think like that is a statement that stands on its own. I feel incredibly blessed to be in a situation that I'm in to be able to have housing so quickly. I mean, that's relative, right?
So I [00:26:00] said 30 days I was in a hotel but to be able to have housing so quickly and just kind of be rebounding in the way that I'm rebounding, I'm about a mile from my house, so I can go, I mean, I technically could walk over there, but I go check on the property every so often. But it, it is, like you said, it's like pulling a scab off of a wound.
Every time I go by the house, I see the ruins of the fire, right? Everything is boarded up inside it, you know, there's, there's clear water damage everywhere. So it, you know, it's soggy. It's moldy. It's, I mean, I've had the property, uh, vandalized I think three times.
Rachel Duncan: No.
Rahkim Sabree: Uh, yeah, I have, uh, people have broken in, uh, stole all the copper. There are people who are sleeping there, who are doing drugs there. Like there was, I had to call the police out a couple of times. Fortunately, in, in all the times that I've been there, nobody was there, but there was evidence, right, of things of mine being touched, being moved.
Rachel Duncan: we just talk
about
[00:27:00] that violation, right? Like
Rahkim Sabree: oh, so it feels super violating.
Rachel Duncan: violating, like, ugh.
Rahkim Sabree: Super violating and so now I'm having to go through like, what are these mitigation efforts look like to make sure that the house is not accessible. And in talking to the different professionals that I work with, including the police, they're like, look, if somebody wants to get in, like they're gonna get in.
And it, it kind of, I, I think like the hair in the back of mind that kind of stands up when I think about it because. There was this I'll use the word illusion of security in being in, in the structure where I was like, oh, nobody, like, I'll go to bed every night and nobody's gonna break in. Like nobody can break in.
But like to see how easy it was for somebody to access the property when I was gone,
Rachel Duncan: Mm-hmm.
Rahkim Sabree: like when they thought that nobody was there, nobody's coming back, lets me know how easy it would've been for somebody to access the property while I was there.
Rachel Duncan: Right.
Rahkim Sabree: But again, like going back to this framing of like being blessed I'm still extremely proud of the accomplishment, [00:28:00] right?
I bought my house when I was 26 years old.
Rachel Duncan: Wow.
Rahkim Sabree: I got it for like a good rate. I think I, uh, my interest rate was two and a quarter,
Rachel Duncan: Ooh,
Rahkim Sabree: now, like interest rates are, yeah.
Rachel Duncan: I'm giving lots of snaps for that. I know, man. I've got a 3% mortgage rate. It's like, oh, wow. Didn't realize how good we had it back then.
Rahkim Sabree: Right. But you know, the, you know, of course the, like, there's a trauma of. Every time the month turns, I have to pay the mortgage on the house that I'm not living in. Right. And, you know, I have to like, there is the financial burden of maintaining that obligation through this season where, you know, I'm not, uh, full-time employed by anybody.
Like I work for myself. So what the added layer of entrepreneurial stress looks like in how do you go out and find money so that you can pay your mortgage in a house that you're not living in. Right.
I'm gonna say this is all of course offset by the fact that my insurance is covering my living expenses here.
[00:29:00] But like, if I had to do both that, I mean, I feel like that would be impossible.
Rachel Duncan: Right. That's the, tipping point in, in so
Rahkim Sabree: yeah.
Rachel Duncan: I know so many Americans are one accident, one health issue away from being unhoused,
Rahkim Sabree: Yes.
Rachel Duncan: Right? And so you realize like, like you said, like, oh, I had this illusion of security and Wow, one event. One event really can turn at all. And that's so true for so many of us.
And I'm also thinking like from a mental health standpoint, when we talk about trauma, the, the thing about it is, it's like this, back to the, our metaphor of the computer. It's like there's this program running now that is taking up your bandwidth, right? Even in a low level. Like it's so, you know, you're safe, you're secure. We have a few months behind you. But I'm, I'm just wondering, like, it's, it's sort of there, like you said, like you go past it and you see, you know, vandalism, it's gotta be like this running, running thing. And that's the thing with trauma is that it's like, it's taking up your bandwidth of this reminder that you're not safe [00:30:00] that there are threats to be dealt with, whether or not there really are. And, and that limits your ability to think about the future to, you know, have the capacity for whatever it is you're doing right now. Yeah, I just wanna illustrate like that's another, another reason why we need to look at trauma because it, it takes up our bandwidth. Because our body will want us to be safe first.
Like it will reprioritize everything for physical safety, you know? And so like we learned, we both took the trauma of money course, and I think one of the most useful things I learned from it is when we experience financial trauma, financial instability, it's sort of like the blinders go on and we're literally unable to think about anything but the present moment, like our brain is like all systems on the right now, which totally makes sense.
It's completely logical. like, if you're not, you know, not being able to plan for the future or sit down or take a risk, you're not gonna be taking risks, right? You're not gonna be, maybe sitting in a place of nuance or, I mean, I'm not [00:31:00] talking you, I'm talking in, in general, you know, this is how I, how I look at trauma and I'm just wondering if that lands for you.
Rahkim Sabree: Oh, absolutely. A a hundred percent, probably more, more for me than I think anybody. When we look at it just from an educational lens, right? Like we can talk about trauma all day and we can take the courses and we can read the books. And we could write the books, right? This is, this is my real, my reality.
Mm-hmm. Right? And then, you know, 30 days before the book comes out, there's this experience and it's like, and I've talked to so many peers in the space, financial therapists and and otherwise talked to, to Chantel directly, right. Trauma of money. And she was like, I don't know what this means, but I feel like it means something
Rachel Duncan: Hmm.
Rahkim Sabree: that you are writing this book and you are having to experience this at the same time.
And it, it's shitty. Yes. But like, what, what does this mean? And so like, I've spent a lot of time over the last month [00:32:00] or so, kind of like in the back of my mind really trying to determine meaning until I'm like, oh, well maybe there is no meaning. Maybe it's just like, this is what happened. And now like I have a choice.
The choice then becomes, do you let the old program run or do you opt into to choosing a new program? And so I think like everything that you said is spot on, but I also think that when you become trauma informed or trauma responsive, which is kinda like the space that I'm occupying, you can then take action to acknowledge the trauma occurred, which certainly has acknowledged the manifestations of trauma, which I've seen, right?
Like it took me a very long time to be able to light a candle
Rachel Duncan: Mm.
Rahkim Sabree: after the fire.
Rachel Duncan: Yeah.
Rahkim Sabree: like seeing, seeing fires on TV and in movies triggered me seeing any kind of natural disaster actually triggered me. But, uh, fires in particular, smelling smoke triggered me. I still have belongings that smell like smoke that I've retrieved from the house.
Rachel Duncan: I bet.
Rahkim Sabree: [00:33:00] So there, so there are things that I, like, I, I recognize are triggering my body. Where in my mind I'm like, I'm good. Like I'm safe. I know that I'm safe. I can tell myself that I'm safe, but my body is responding to certain triggers. And so I can say, okay, what are the activities or exercises that I need to engage in to help regulate my nervous system in this moment?
And most people don't have the language or the techniques to engage in that way. And so they operate on this loop. I talk about my dad a lot in the book and, you know, uh, not funny, but there's irony here. My dad experienced a a fire
Rachel Duncan: Really,
Rahkim Sabree: probably around the age that I am now
Rachel Duncan: really
Rahkim Sabree: he was, when he was around my age, he lived in an apartment though, and he did not have renter's insurance.
And so my dad got it like probably better than anybody. And he's like, he's like, son, like I understand.
Rachel Duncan: Wow.
Rahkim Sabree: And he like, you know, I don't. I don't want to minimize the experience that you've had but I want you to focus on the blessing [00:34:00] that is the fact that that, you know, this was space that you owned and that you had insurance.
He's like, because when I experienced my fire,
Rachel Duncan: that was it.
Rahkim Sabree: I had to really rebuild from zero.
Rachel Duncan: Yeah. Along with the trauma
mean, that
Rahkim Sabree: along with the trauma.
Rachel Duncan: we're talking about, like the generational shifts and changes, right? There could, there can be you know, scripts or these shared experiences, but also with that, with your ability to become a homeowner, right? And what that means, that this is not something that, you know, could be as dangerous for you as it could have been for someone who does not own the property, right?
Rahkim Sabree: Mm-hmm.
Rachel Duncan: Kind of, this deciding factor of what it means to have an asset.
Rahkim Sabree: Yeah.
Rachel Duncan: It's huge.
Rahkim Sabree: Yeah.
Rachel Duncan: That's huge. Wow. Rahkim
I'm actually wondering, you tell so many great stories in the book. One thing I really loved is your stories about your family and growing up. I'm thinking also as we're, as we're thinking about like kind of trauma recovery and healing top [00:35:00] down in the bottom up to healing
Rahkim Sabree: yes.
Rachel Duncan: about the drumming and your kind of connection to somatic healing that is, is not a new thing for you, that this comes from, from your family and your childhood.
I was wondering if you could share a little bit about that.
Rahkim Sabree: Yeah. And I appreciate that you brought this up. I don't talk about it often, but when I was focused on the healing piece of financial trauma, and of course, you know, we talk about somatic healing and trauma of money, but it didn't land with me as I was going through the course, until I read both The Body Keeps to Score and My Grandmother's Hands by Resmaa Menakem.
I don't remember what chapter it was, but I think it was one of the opening chapters. Resmaa says, trauma is not a mind event, it's a body event..
Rachel Duncan: Yeah.
Rahkim Sabree: And he's talking about trauma generalized. But so much of my approach to dealing with financial trauma up until that point, and of course I'm coming into this from, into a financial, uh, [00:36:00] background, was narrative based.
It was like, how do we talk our way through this? And then I was like, no. Like I've been getting this wrong. The somatic pieces are non-negotiable because it's happening in our body. And so when I got to sit down and start processing, well, what does that mean? What does that look like?
How does that show up? What are the practices that we can engage in? I'm somebody who likes to collect, like certifications and designations and stuff. I'm like, oh, lemme go get certified and, and be becoming a somatic, you know, healing practitioner. I stopped as I was writing and I was like, wait a second.
Like, this has been a part of my life, all of my life. And so the story that you're referencing I talk about spending time at my grandfather's house and in the morning when we would wake up my grandfather would play drumming, play like these African drums. And like that was kind of like, it's time to wake up guys.
But, and as a part of that process, and my grandfather was very intentional with a lot of the [00:37:00] things that he did with us that I'm only realizing and you know, now. And my grandfather, I think he passed away in 2005, so he is been gone for like just over 10 years now.
It wasn't 2005, it was 2015. I'm sorry, 2015. But I'm like, there's so many things that I experienced where I'm like, man, I wish I could go back and ask him about this. Or, man, I could go back, wish I could go back and talk to him about this. Because he knew. But like, he also knew that at that point in our lives, we weren't like at a place where we can like receive it all.
And he would say it all the time. He is like, I'm planting seeds, I'm planting seeds, I'm planting seeds. But anyway he would have us get up. We would, we would have drums playing. He would have us, uh, go through like, you know, just do chores like I think any normal family would. But we all had our assigned tasks and so we would clean the space and then he would have us sit and meditate.
We're like, what do we know about meditating at like, I don't know, five, 10 years old? But he would have us sit and we would sit and like, you know, legs [00:38:00] crossed and we would close our eyes and we would just sit there and, and listen to the music and breathe. And you know, a lot of times I think we felt like it was punishment.
Rachel Duncan: Hmmm,
Rahkim Sabree: It was regulation. He introduced us to Tai Chi as a practice. He introduced us to different martial arts as a practice. And then as children, of course, we have so much energy. And so his wisdom had us learn how to regulate and then take us to a designated time and space, which was we would go to the park and go burn off that energy.
So we'd go and we'd run around and we'd play, and he'd let us do what we do, and then there would be time for us to come back, and then we would regulate again. And so there was this, this, this practice in particular that he used to have us do, he would refer to us, uh, summoning Qi. And so he is exposing us to this concept of Qi, which is eastern concept that refers to, uh, life energy.
And so he would have us like in this very, uh, almost [00:39:00] flamboyant way, like gather the energy with our hands as we inhale. Then hold it and then push the energy out as we exhale. And we're like, we're just going along with the process. We don't know what we're doing. We're just like, alright, whatever he's telling us to do.
But anytime we were hurt, anytime we were scared, anytime we were angry, he would be like summon Qi, summon Qi. If we're doing March martial arts and there was contact made summon Qi, like, this is how you regulate. So like you're not responding from the anger. If you get slapped in the face, you're not reacting.
Right. Summon Qi, if we fall and we scrape our knee summon Qi right. And so it told us how to deal with pain. It told us how to deal with whatever the dysregulation in our physical space was. But I don't think, uh, I certainly didn't, I won't speak for my siblings. I don't think that we processed what was happening on a mental and emotional level
in terms of what that regulation looks like.
Rachel Duncan: You know, and it speaks to like, know[00:40:00]
we're talking so much recently in current times about nervous system regulation, what we're learning, but it's like these practices have, you know, there are many, many lineages of these practices. This is not new stuff all. And the other aspect of this, as I'm hearing you tell these stories, is, is the co-regulation that this was together, right? That he seemed to be kind of a, a beacon or anchor point of that, but it was there, there's something about doing it together that must have been
Rahkim Sabree: Oh yeah.
Rachel Duncan: Huge part of that. And of course a practice that you can take on your own. But it, there's, there's a connective quality to into this, into the Qi space or into that more regulated space with your siblings, with your family, with your grandfather.
Rahkim Sabree: Yeah. And I'll, I'll just add this really quickly because when you said that word co-regulate. I got like a chill. So I keyed AFCPE's conference in 2025.
Rachel Duncan: Mm-hmm.
Rahkim Sabree: I was the, the morning closing keynote[00:41:00] Erika Wasserman, who shout out to Erika, also a financial therapist. She was a closing, closing keynote for that evening.
But I was freaking out because I knew that I had agreed to doing this keynote. And then, you know, when I signed the contract and, you know, this was like money, right? That I was expecting. And so I was like, I can't back out, right? Like I bought my ticket, like the hotel, everything's taken care of. Like I have to show up and do this thing.
And so I showed up to Phoenix and I'm in a frantic and I'm like, how do I be present for this conference?
Rachel Duncan: And, this was soon after the incident
Rahkim Sabree: this was immediately, so the fire happened October 18th. The conference was November 18th, so literally 30 days after. And it was the day that my book launched. So conference started November 18th, my book launched November 18th.
I had my books present, so how do I sell these books or be present in the conference and prepare for this keynote and much of the [00:42:00] AFCPE community, I'm connected with right on social media. So they knew about what had happened. And so people were stopping me in the hallway and they're like, oh, how are you doing?
And people were hugging me. And, you know, there's a lot of reliving the trauma and sharing the story. And of course, you know, everybody wants to know what's going on. So I'm practicing my keynote the days before and I can't get through it.
Rachel Duncan: Hmm.
Rahkim Sabree: Like I'm, I can't even get through half of it as I'm telling the story or as I'm working through the pieces that I want to, like, I'm not even telling the story.
I wasn't even sure I was going to tell the story at this point. I'm working through the pieces. I'm feeling my body like fight me,
Rachel Duncan: Yeah.
Rahkim Sabree: my heart rate, getting lightheaded. Like I'm just, I can't. And I'm like, I don't know how I'm gonna do this. And so I finally resigned to, excuse me, the night before and I'm going to do this keynote, whatever happens, right?
If I have to read the words off of the page, I'm, but that's not my speaking style, right? Like, I like to talk. But I said, at least I'll have this as a backup so that I can [00:43:00] fulfill the obligation. So I wrote out the entire keynote. I get on stage the day of, and I start and I say I wanna engage in a practice of call and response, right?
And so I say something, you say something, I say something, you say something. So we engage in a call and response practice. And basically it was a question like, how are you guys doing? But I had like jazzed it up so, you know, got, you know, men in the room, how are you guys feeling? Women in the room, how are you guys feeling?
They're responding and I'm like, well, I'm not good, right? Like, and I, and I want to acknowledge that I'm not good in this moment. And I also want to acknowledge that many of my peers and colleagues in this space have let me know that it's okay for me not to be good in this moment, but I'm gonna work through this, uh, this keynote with you guys as I'm experiencing this in real time.
Rachel Duncan: yeah,
Rahkim Sabree: And so, of course they, they held a lot of space for me in that moment. But this is the point that I was trying to make. I said, before we get into all of this, I need us [00:44:00] all to take a deep inhale and exhale, right? And so my slide said woosah on it. And so there was this collective practice of well over a hundred people coregulating
Rachel Duncan: yeah.
Rahkim Sabree: in the space with me.
And what I had shared with them around the science of that was what we know, right? To be true human beings look for safety in other human beings as groups, right? We're social creatures. And so I said, I want to know that I'm safe with you
Rachel Duncan: Yeah.
Rahkim Sabree: and I want you to know that you're safe with me. This is a heavy topic that we're about to talk about.
Rachel Duncan: Yeah.
Rahkim Sabree: And so I want us to go this grounded and regulated together. And so that practice of summon Qi showed up in the keynote. I didn't call it that, but I was like, I wanted to take a deep, right. I wanna call it a deep inhale and, and exhale. And there's a picture that they caught, that I love where like you see me with my hands, like out, like you can't see like me motioning it on the screen, but my [00:45:00] hands out.
And I'm like, I love that picture because it shows like this is that moment. So yeah, that was.
Rachel Duncan: Can we take a beat? You know? And it's, and I think also, yeah, it's co-regulating. It's, can I be vulnerable in this moment and still be here without. the trauma responses are real and sometimes that happens to keep us safe, right? Fight, flight, freeze, fawn, like those are understandable reactions, but to consciously, this is the top down and the bottom up response. I know that I'm safe, I'm feeling unsafe, so I'm going to do a bottom up like co-regulating so that I can feel safe so that I can get through this and also make it even better. all the while you're expanding your own capacity for sitting with discomfort as well as everyone else's capacity for sitting with discomfort not going to react into a trauma response because we don't need to, 'cause we actually do know that we're safe. Right. So I, I just, I love, [00:46:00] I love in the book and in the story that's like, I'm gonna take what I know to be true logically. I know I'm gonna honor what my body is doing right now, and I'm gonna come to the middle with the tools that I know and bring everyone in. Talk about, man, you walk your talk dude. You walk your talk. I love that.
Rahkim Sabree: Yes. Yes. And it was a phenomenal keynote. And I'm, I'm not saying that because I, 'cause I did it, but like there was a standing ovation. I mean, the line of people that wanted to talk to me afterwards and, uh, share their experiences and how healing that talk was, was just out of this world. It was, it was everything I could have asked for and more.
Rachel Duncan: I bet. I bet. Well, I, I wanna show everyone your beautiful book, beautiful book here, and we've already got like tags and, and stuff. So Overcoming Financial Trauma, Rahkim Sabree is available on all platforms. I will also link to my bookshop that you can help support my work by buying the book [00:47:00] through that.
Um, Rahkim, thank you. I, we could sit here and talk about all the dimensions of financial trauma all day long. But I do wanna ask you, the question that I ask all my guests towards the end of our talk was if you could summon a little Qi and take a beat and open up your receptive, uh, right side of your brain.
And if I ask you, I wanna ask you a question, I want you to. Respond with your first intuitive hit without judgment, which is if you were to picture your money as a creature in this moment, what do you get?
Rahkim Sabree: I would say a dog.
Rachel Duncan: A dog. Yeah. Tell me about the dog.
Rahkim Sabree: I would say a dog. So I have a dog. His name is Loki. Loki was saved from the fire as well. Yes. And the reason why I think about Loki in this moment is because he's five years old. He's a, a aussie lab mix of a ball of energy. Me and Loki had to go to obedient school and have some foundational training for [00:48:00] him.
And when I think about, when I take Loki off for a walk, right, especially in this new space that we're in, because he experienced trauma too. And he experiences separation anxiety. And, you know, he went from living in his own house to now being in an apartment with all of these new smells and all of these new people and all of these new dogs.
When, when we are walking by somebody, Loki wants to greet them, but he lunges and so to other people, he appears to 'cause he is a black dog. He appears to be, uh, threatening. Like I've seen people like, Nope, I'm not getting on the elevator with you. Uh, are you sure he's good? Like, I don't want him to bite me.
And I'm like, he's good. Like he's, he's so innocent. But I think about training in this, in this analogy when it comes to money and Loki can be well behaved. Like we have sat on the elevator and he's done exactly what I've told him. I'm like, Loki, put your butt down. That's how I tell him to sit and, you know, wait.
And he does what I tell him. And then there's [00:49:00] moments where he gets chaotic and I have him on the leash and he's kind of like trying to drag me down the street and I have to reign him in and like, Hey, that's not how we're behaving today. I think of money in that way, right? Money is a tool and, uh, the way that we engage with money, I think is how we would engage with a dog that's very curious, right?
That's, that's, and that leash and being able to rein it in and recognize like, Hey, there's a trauma trigger, or maybe there's not a trauma trigger. Maybe there is just an assault on our nervous system that says you need to buy this item. Or you need to spend money in this way, or you need to try and regulate yourself by spending money.
And we have to kind of yank that leash a little bit and say, Hey, like this is the plan. Let's stick to the plan. Because I think that like Loki, if we do not reign in our experiences with money [00:50:00] that, Loki would jump over whoever walks by, right? And I, I think the analogy here with money is that we will use our money on whatever, uh, we can use our money on to make us feel safe or to make us feel satisfied or to make us feel whatever.
And so we have to have limits and we have to articulate what those limits are. And so Loki knows what his limits are and sometimes he needs to be reminded. Many times he needs to be reminded. But that's my job as, you know, Loki's custodian, right? To remind him like, these are what the limits look like.
Rachel Duncan: I love that also because it's not just your money is a creature. That creature, you're, it's the relationship you have, right? That like
Rahkim Sabree: Yes.
Rachel Duncan: the one who kind of knows what's up and that money's gonna do what money's gonna do and is gonna react. But it, it ultimately does come down to this relationship that we have.
Right. And and it's still closeness, it's not punishing. Right. But it is, a, there's a closeness that co-regulation we've talked about that like. [00:51:00] Ultimately he, he's grounded by you, right? Not the other way around.
Rahkim Sabree: Right.
Rachel Duncan: Yeah. Well, probably is. He probably grounds you too, in other times, right?
Rahkim Sabree: He, he, he definitely does. He definitely does. But when, when we're in the confines of, of our space, right? Like if we're outside in the open field I'm not gonna take his leash off and let him go run crazy.
Rachel Duncan: Because you know
Rahkim Sabree: You know? He might run into the street, get hit by a car, you know? Right. So we have to know like, when is it appropriate for us?
To kind of let loose and when is it appropriate for us to based on our environment? Kind of think, keep things close?
Rachel Duncan: Right. Which feel, actually we're talking security. We're talking attachment. We're talking like that healing. Creating more ground beneath us is actually knowing those things and knowing that it's dynamic, that it's not always the same. Right? Sometimes he's in a mood, sometimes you're in a mood, I'm guessing.
Right? Like that
Rahkim Sabree: Yeah, no, a hundred percent.
Rachel Duncan: Dynamic and nimble and and all of this actually creates this sense of, of safety and stability. Yeah. Well, [00:52:00] Rahkim, thank you so much for, for being here. I am so, so grateful that you are safe, that Loki is safe. I look forward to also just witnessing your healing. I hope to be part of your healing and your healing community. And as you know, the next chapters unfold, probably more books I'm guessing about this. I've, I've really loved getting to know you and also your book is quite excellent. I'm going to recommend it to all my clients and colleagues. So everyone check out Overcoming Financial Trauma by Rahkim Sabree, and Rahkim.
Thank you for being here.
Rahkim Sabree: Thank you. It's been such a pleasure.
Rachel Duncan: That's the Money Healing Club podcast, everyone. And now a little honest money moment because hey, that's what we do here. I want you to know that it costs about $400 to produce each episode of this podcast right now that is funded through my other financial therapy work.
So my ask is this, if this [00:53:00] show has helped you feel less ashamed, less alone, more grounded in your money life, I'd love for you to support it financially. If you can. Go on over to moneyhealingclub.com/podcast and you'll see a button to help support the show. Think of it as helping keep this a soft place to land open and running for all.
So if you're craving more support, there's lots of other financial therapy goodness happening at moneyhealingclub.com From group programs to courses and other ways to work together. You don't have to do this alone. Production support for the podcast by Sydney Harbosky at sydneyharbosky.com We are also a proud member of the Feminist Podcasters Collective, where creators are building podcasts in a better world together. I will see you next time.