S2 E37: 💳 Debt-Free Isn't the Answer
EPISODE SUMMARY
What if paying off debt faster isn't actually the goal? In this episode of The Money Healing Club, Rachel sits down with Haley and Justin Brown-Woods, the husband-wife team behind The Price of Avocado Toast, to reframe everything you thought you knew about debt. They discuss why the first step isn’t spreadsheets but childhood patterns, how the “whatever’s left” approach keeps you stuck, and why wealthy people don’t see debt as a moral failing. This conversation will challenge traditional ideas of being “responsible” with debt and may even strengthen your relationship in the process.
💬 "Debt happens to people more than people happen into debt. When folks first meet with us, they're so heavily rooted in this idea of 'I'm bad, I've caused this, and it's all my fault.'"
Key Takeaways:
• The language we use about debt reveals deep shame - "I'm bad with money" puts all blame on ourselves, not systems
Your first credit card story (probably age 18-22) holds crucial clues about your current debt patterns
Paying minimums on everything for 1-2 months to get control beats chaotic "throw whatever's left" approach
Most people are paid bi-weekly but all budgets/bills are monthly - this mismatch creates the debt cycle
"Done" doesn't mean debt-free - it means making empowered decisions without fear or desperation
About Haley & Justin Brown-Woods:
Haley and Justin Brown-Woods are Accredited Financial Counselors® and the voices behind Price of Avocado Toast, a platform dedicated to redefining what financial wellness looks like for everyday people. Together, they help individuals and families break the debt cycle, build sustainable money habits, and align their spending with their core values
⏰ EPISODE BREAKDOWN:
03:00 | The Shame That Shows Up First Why clients worry you'll judge them as much as they worry about the cost
06:30 | Starting With Story, Not Spreadsheets Why their first session focuses entirely on childhood and life history
21:00 | The Free Pizza That Started It All Unpacking how we all got our first credit cards (and why we had no idea what we were doing)
26:00 | Why "Throw Whatever's Left" Keeps You Stuck How inconsistent debt payments feed the drama instead of solving it
32:00 | Debt Is Morally Neutral (Even the Founding Fathers Knew It) Why bankruptcy is actually the American way and wealthy people leverage debt as a tool
📚 Resources Mentioned
"The Psychology of Money" by Morgan Housel - history of consumer debt
💬 Join the Conversation!
What shame language do you use about your debt? Do you say "I'm bad with money" or "I got myself into this mess"? What was your first credit card story? The Money Healing Club podcast wants to hear how debt actually happened TO you: https://www.moneyhealingclub.com/podcast
🎧 Your next listen:
Listen to the No New Things Book Club episode on why we have so much stuff we don’t need.
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Debt-free isnt' the answer w/ Haley & Justin Brown-Woods
[00:00:00]
Rachel Duncan: Welcome to the Money Healing Club podcast everyone. I'm your host, Rachel Duncan. I'm a certified financial therapist and art therapist, and I founded the Money Healing Club. You've come to the softest place to land in personal finance where we talk about all the things we don't usually say when we talk about money.
Reminder, this podcast is for education and entertainment purposes only. For help with your particular situation, please reach out to a licensed professional in tax finance or mental health. You know, I was looking over the topics I've covered in the last year of this podcast and there's a lot.
I hope you go through the catalog and see if there's anything you missed. But there is one thing that I haven't really unpacked yet. And that is debt, not just debt. What do we do with it? Debt. It sucks, but the emotional experience of debt. Why is debt so emotional? It's such a different, it almost has a different flavor to it.
When I am working with a client [00:01:00] talking about their debt, we feel it in our bodies. There's so much shame, there's so much moral judgment around debt, and so it's really important that we talk about it. While the number one issue people come to me with is impulse spending. I'd say a close second is debt.
So I knew just the experts to bring in to really unpack the topic of debt.
Some of you may already know about Haley and Justin Brown Woods, and if you don't Oh, I'm so excited for you to meet them. They are the creators of the Price of Avocado Toast Podcast and Money Coaching. I was a guest on their podcast a few years ago, and we have stayed genuine buddies ever since. Hailey and Justin are a husband and wife team.
They're both accredited financial counselors. And they're the voices behind the price of avocado toast. A platform dedicated to redefining what financial wellness looks like for everyday people. They help folks that are in debt who are feeling shame and guilt around their money and their audience is usually the classic [00:02:00] millennials.
Hey, we were all sold some type of narrative that we just need to go to college and get a job. You're set to go, everything will work out. Well, that didn't work out for most folks. So Haley and Justin really understand that, and they help their clients and their audience transform their relationship with money by working on building trust with themselves, paying down debt and growing savings.
By the way, we had some audio problems with this recording, so you might notice a slight echo if you're listening at high volumes. We've done the best we can to mitigate it. I hope you enjoy my conversation with the wonderful Haley and Justin where we talk about all the things we don't usually say when we talk about debt.
Rachel Duncan: Welcome, Hailey and Justin to the Money Healing Club podcast. I'm so glad to bring you in because you are the experts in the process of paying down debt, having debt, seeking help about debt.
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: that.
Rachel Duncan: So what I'm wondering is, when a [00:03:00] client first comes to you,
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: to
Rachel Duncan: what do you notice about their emotional state?
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: state? First, thanks for having us. We're stoked to be here. would say one of the first things I notice is how fragile folks are and the language they use immediately puts blame on themselves, not any systemic issues or outside factors. So it's those terms like, I'm bad with money. I could be doing better. I got myself into this mess and there's, there's certainly, power, in accountability or taking responsibility, I should say. And yet we also have to honor the outside factors at play or the systemic issues that have led us here so often. Haley and I will say debt happens to people more than people happen into debt When folks are first meeting with us, they're so heavily rooted in this [00:04:00] idea of, I'm bad, I've caused this and it's all my fault. Yeah.
Rachel Duncan: love that. You know, our, our colleague, the Budgetnista, she says,
people say I'm in debt, but debt is not a place, it's a thing you're dealing with. Like it's just a thing. It's, you have borrowed money that you are repaying, you know? And so often the language around debt is, I'm in debt, I'm carrying debt, I'm overwhelmed by debt.
It's like a very physical experience.
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: Definitely notice the shame first
Rachel Duncan: for sure.
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: over everything else.
Rachel Duncan: Yeah.
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: It's the internalization that they are wrong and they've done something wrong or they're bad. And that takes a long time to reframe. But that's like the first thing it's, it is what Justin was saying, how they're speaking to themselves and about themselves and about their partners, and it's deep rooted in their core
Rachel Duncan: Right, and the steps they have gone through, even to just book this call, right? Like really putting their hearts on the line. And you know, probably after many [00:05:00] attempts to try to do this on their own. And that even like, is maybe even more entrenched in shame that they have to get help with this or they feel they have to get help with this.
It sounds like you really hear both. Right?
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: right?
Rachel Duncan: You. You, you have maybe some responsibility in this. You feel the shame. At the same time we're holding a much
broader scope of this.
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: Totally.
Rachel Duncan: Yeah.
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: One of the questions on our application to work with us is what is. What are your reservations about one-to-one coaching? You know, what are the things you're worried about? And it's like a 50 50 split between, I'm worried about the cost, or I'm worried you're gonna judge me, or I'm worried you're gonna make me feel bad. it's like, oh man, I wish a hundred percent of the time, people are just like, I'm worried about the cost. Right? Like I, okay, we can talk about that and we can worry about that later, but the shame and the guilt and being worried that somebody that they're reaching out to for help is gonna make, make them feel worse.
It's make worse. Yeah. Like, that's just so ugh.
Rachel Duncan: I know it is heartbreaking and oh wow, we have this opportunity for this amazing conversation that [00:06:00] we know, I know you guys know that, like we come at this from a such a different place, like just deeply rooted compassion. Like
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: Totally.
Rachel Duncan: Yeah. There's a phrase. It kind of in the, addictions world, it is not your fault, but it is your responsibility.
And so here we go, you know, and, and doing this together and it's such a brave step to even reach out, right? Like, I need you guys, so, okay.
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: I'm gonna write that down. That's a good
Rachel Duncan: Oh, yeah, write that down. It's not my quote. I'll put it in the show notes, whoever coined that, but yeah, it's, it's a really important one. So let's say they, they, they show up.
I got a lot of shame. I'm worried you guys are gonna judge me, but here I am.
I'm
desperate. It's my last resort.
Where do you go from there? Because I know you guys really bridge the emotional and the practical. What are the next steps? Are you getting into spreadsheets? Are you doing mindset?
How are you doing that next part?
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: The very, very first session that we have with a client, we don't even dive into numbers at all because I think that that just stresses people out even more. We do a whole [00:07:00] session on their background and how you became you today starting with childhood and then moving into the college years in the early adult years, and into your marriage and all of those little things that have shaped you, and this is when people will share with us that. Oh my, my family is, I'm one of eight children and my, my spouse is an only child. And the way we manage money might be a little different because of the way we were raised. Oh, let's talk a little bit more about that. Maybe you come from an immigrant family. All of those things shape your relationship with money.
So we really wanna figure out the foundation of who you are besides the money, like deeper than the many, beyond all of that. And then we go into the numbers after that.
Rachel Duncan: Yep.
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: And I also feel like it helps people open up and feel more comfortable with talking about the numbers and
Rachel Duncan: Awesome.
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: how much are you spending on groceries instead of just estimating. All of those numbers are kind of just facts. But before we go [00:08:00] into all of that, I need to kind of like ease and get to know them a little bit.
Rachel Duncan: I love, I love hearing you say that. It's like so similar to my process and I think a lot of clients are like, well, shouldn't I build a budget? Shouldn't we get into numbers or isn't that what doing money is? And I'll say, well, we will get there and we'll know because it will feel a lot easier to do.
And that there is this, slower, maybe messier process first, right? Yeah. Have, I mean, we all know our whole history with money, but we've never sat down and said it to somebody
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: Yeah. I mean, a wise human we know once told us that our relationship with money is the longest relationship we're ever gonna have. Right. And.
Rachel Duncan: Who said that.
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: Yeah, I I, when you said that, it was so profound 'cause it was so real
Rachel Duncan: Yeah.
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: You know,
Rachel Duncan: Yeah.
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: back and, and you think about the people that come into your life and the folks that we lose, whether they're family members or intimate members or whatever it might be. Right? But that relationship with money doesn't ever disappear and we have to cultivate a healthy relationship [00:09:00] with it
Rachel Duncan: Yes.
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: And a healthy relationship with money doesn't just look at it from the lens of the numbers, it looks from it from like a full wellness picture. And I think the moment we start to recognize that there's so much deeper than just the numbers, both in the positive and the negative times. The easier it gets, like you said, to confront the numbers, the easier it gets to cultivate the relationship we want for the decades moving forward on our journey,
Rachel Duncan: Totally. Okay. So they're unpacking their story. They're sharing it for the first time. They're probably getting a heap of validation and relief and
a little scary, but, oh, this is something I can talk about. I can feel like probably some early wins is, I don't know, I'm kind of tracking my own, my clients were journey, which I think is similar to yours,
right?
So they're getting some early wins and then maybe some nuts and bolts stuff are happening. What? What are you noticing?
Maybe I, I guess I'm curious on the practical side, like are we looking, we're getting debts organized, and are you helping them kind of
Figure out what to go after first? Like what, where, how do [00:10:00] you, and I know everyone's so different, but let's say there's a millennial couple, which I know is your usual, niche.
Have accumulated credit card debt and student loan debt and maybe a car loan
And they have tried paying it down before, and it just keeps cycling and snowballing and it's affecting their marriage, and they show up in your doorstep. You guys start unpacking stuff with them. They're maybe getting a little organized as well as honoring their stories.
What, what are you helping them prioritize at that point?
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: The first thing we do with the intake of all of the numbers is really figure out, are we in? A deficit or do we have some money left over? Because people will come to us with the goal of, I wanna pay off my credit card debt and then maybe pay off my car loan, and then eventually I'll get to those student loans.
But I'd like to have some money in savings and my relationship is really struggling with my husband. So there's all of these
Rachel Duncan: All of it
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: goals happening at the same time.
Rachel Duncan: Yes.
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: And if we wanna move forward with anything, we need to really just organize everything first. So once we figure out if they're in the [00:11:00] red or not. If they are, we have to close that gap, increase income, decrease expenses, all of that. That really takes time. And then we do move on to finding a plan for their goals. And so if it is debt payoff or if it is savings, we figure out, okay, now you have extra money or you're gonna earn extra money. Now, let's put it towards your goals and do all of that. But circling back to if you are in a relationship with someone and you're not totally on the same page. If you're doing this process with someone, it takes time to really iron things out to get on the same page. This is something Justin's really good at helping partners do to get on the same page, but I think that the organization has to happen with the planning and then figuring out the values.
Now, I would love to hear how you. Work with getting people on the same page. 'cause I think that that's huge.
Rachel Duncan: Tell us how Justin, how.
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: I think that for our kind of typical client or like our ideal client, many of them are married couples that have some type of a debt. maybe they are in the [00:12:00] millennial demographic where they were kind of sold this bill of goods of go to school, get a good job, get a partner, get a house, all those things.
And maybe it's not coming to fruition for them. And so for many of the heterosexual couples that work with us, I think I do a really good job of helping the male partner recognize that there's not this like fault of their ego in that space. The fault
Rachel Duncan: Yeah.
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: their ego actually comes from the response to it and how they're navigating it with their partner, right?
Because it's okay to say, man, this does not look like how I intended. This doesn't look like what I thought it was gonna be, or, or what I was hoping for. And it's the response that is typically. Some type of judgment or shame on their partner as the primary household parent that's spending and whatnot. And so I think I do a really good job of giving men that space to be vulnerable and to say like, man, what's the fear behind this? What's the worry here? What is it really rooted in? Lot of men don't [00:13:00] really have that opportunity to
Rachel Duncan: Yeah,
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: kind of just be vulnerable
Rachel Duncan: absolutely
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: I think they need like the safe place to do that around money.
You know
Rachel Duncan: right.
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: I think there are other spaces obviously that I'm not qualified to do that. I am qualified to talk about money
Rachel Duncan: Yeah, absolutely. And the ripple effects though, having that one conversation, I would venture to guess they're gonna take that to their couples therapist, right? That is such an opportunity for intimacy and growth, even just on this topic of money for a partner to witness their, their partner or spouse.
You know, be honest about that kind of vulnerability. There's amazing ripple effects.
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: Totally. And you know what's really cool, Rachel and I, I'm sure you've probably seen this in your practice as well, is when we have a couple like that. And we're able to get them on the same page and we start to see the micro wins And maybe it's not
Rachel Duncan: Yeah.
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: I paid off this entire debt, but maybe we threw 50 extra dollars at this debt.
Or we had some minor win where we cooked at home all week and we saved on dining out. Haley and I like to say [00:14:00] everything in your relationship. Probably is gonna get better when you start tidying up your money. realistically, when men start to see those wins, their partner starts to maybe celebrate them a little bit more. Their shoulders relax, they walk with a little more confidence. That confidence then becomes this charisma that their partner's like, oh, been craving this from you again. And then other parts of their relationship start to get better and, and that's what I really think is fun.
Rachel Duncan: Yeah.
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: is to say, Hey, you know, when you show up like the man that you're telling me and you're telling your partner that you wanna be. You get this really positive feedback loop
Rachel Duncan: Yeah.
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: Of like, yes, this is what I'm desiring. This is what I'm hoping for, and now our family starts to thrive and it's really cool to look back on it a year later and be like, oh, look at all that. That's really cool to look back on.
Rachel Duncan: Are, are you saying come for the debt payoff, stay for the great sex life? Is that Yeah.
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: exactly. But we'll say like all of those little wins that [00:15:00] actually are not really about the money
Rachel Duncan: Yeah.
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: Are the most powerful because you will pay off the debt. You have money in
Rachel Duncan: Yeah.
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: savings. But when we are talking about two people getting on the same page, when you can finally do that, you're unstoppable.
Then you take the number one cause for divorce off the table. Then the money part
Rachel Duncan: Yeah.
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: okay. Well, we have, may have other areas that we fight about or that we really need to work on, but that piece is no longer there. And you can work through
Rachel Duncan: Yeah.
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: anything, but it takes time to flex that muscle. You have to, you have to build the muscle first.
Mm-hmm.
Rachel Duncan: Totally. And that's the murky part. That's like the process that is murky and looks different for everybody. And so I just, I just wrote down this process, it's like shame, impatience, right? Like fix it now. We wanna pay it all off now. And folks like us are like, okay, slow your roll. Like let's, there's some, a few things we need to look at.
And also small wins are huge.
Then
and empowerment.
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: Yeah.
Rachel Duncan: that like a, okay, I am curious because sometimes I.
Let my clients know that like, okay, all of this is good. You're gonna have a lot [00:16:00] of early wins, right? This feeling of empowerment and then old habits coming back. The struggles, the setbacks, especially with a couple.
I'm curious what you see there? How do you help a client or how
do you see a couple show up when there's been, oh, we were doing so well and then last weekend happened,
right? This is inevitable.
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: it, it is inevitable. It happens to every single person. I had a text with a client this morning talking about this. Yeah. I think it happens during different seasons, but for sure the summer season will throw every single client we work with off track.
Mm-hmm. And getting them back on track. It can take time. I have several people, we are recording this in the end of October and they're still trying to pick up the pieces from what Summer did to them, and it takes time. But what we keep going back to is you now have tools that you didn't have when we first started. what are these tools you have in your toolbox? How can we use them and implement these things that you now know and how can we get back on track? And every single time they [00:17:00] say, well, it wasn't as big as a spiral as it could have been, or in the past, it would've totally ruined everything. If I did X, Y, and Z and this time I did the same thing.
But I'm just feeling like, well, at least I have a plan now. And they have that confidence that grows over time too. When you also have those tools. Yeah. I also think just naming it straight up, yeah, confronting it and saying like, oh boy, like that was okay. That was kind of wild. Or like, that was not the
Rachel Duncan: Yeah.
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: month we intended, or the summer we intended.
And then having the conversation, you know of, okay, well what part of that wasn't what you intended?
Rachel Duncan: Yeah.
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: Is that something that you guys want in life? Do you want your summer to look like that? And if it does, alright, well then let's start planning ahead for next year.
Rachel Duncan: Yes.
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: Let's make sure that life looks different so that next year we can do that. You know, one wild month isn't going to change everything overnight. But if it's something that you feel you want in life, well then let's plan for it
Rachel Duncan: Exactly.
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: Let's call it out and just name it right now. Yeah, you know what, that's, [00:18:00] that was a fun summer and that is what I want life to be.
So we can at least start to kind of move through that and move forward. It's unfortunately, I think it goes back to the shame part. When we get to those moments, a lot of clients are like, oh, I was dreading this call.
Rachel Duncan: Yeah.
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: we hear them say, I didn't wanna let you down. And I'm like, you
Rachel Duncan: Yes.
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: I almost canceled today.
Yeah, I almost canceled. I thought about cancel. It's like you will never let me down.
Rachel Duncan: Yeah.
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: I am here to support you and I'm not working with you simply because you're gonna have wins. I'm working with you because there's gonna be a time when you get your butt knocked outta the ring and I gotta be courtside to pick you up, dust you off and say, Hey, I didn't hear the bell yet.
Get your butt back in there. Right? That is life. That's the journey. The journey is not linear. It is a fricking rollercoaster.
Rachel Duncan: it really is a spiral. This actually reminds me, I wanna do an episode about stages of change, which, you know, there's science that shows the way we change is cyclical and that every setback is expected. And if we notice them, if we're compassionate about it, every setback is less and less and less.
And [00:19:00] for
like really entrenched habits that we're trying to change. It takes three to five times around the cycle. And it's not about being stricter with yourself or having the right life hacks.
Having a softness. Which no one believes me. It's actually having softness around each cycle.
The drama goes down until you find a new form of maintenance that works, that has flexibility. I think that's part of the paradigm shift is like,
help me
me make a budget and stick to, it's like,
actually that's not the goal.
Sure getting organized, but having your a place for your desires to be met.
Having actually quite a bit of flexibility is usually, you know, how can we have flexibility and still trust ourselves with, it
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: Mm-hmm.
Rachel Duncan: different for everybody, but it sounds like that's where you're building. Yeah.
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: Oh yeah,
Rachel Duncan: Yeah.
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: I mean, you think of the folks who say. Oh, I've, I've tried to pay off my debt four separate times and it just never works. Right? And it's like, okay, well that's, that is a cycle then. Like what is the hangup here
Rachel Duncan: Mm-hmm.
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: what is part of this cycle that's not resonating? Right.
And I love that idea of if we're [00:20:00] able to meet that with softness and a vulnerability and a space to land and call it what it is, then we're able to move through it. To work through it. And unfortunately, a lot of the social media content out there, is rooted in this be better, do better, find the life hack and figure it out. And that's just not how life works.
Rachel Duncan: Well, and you guys and me are all part of the, you know, Dave Ramsey Recovery Center and we get a lot of folks who are on the other side of, of going through some pretty shame-based advice.
If I have debt that's bad entirely. I am bad for having debt. And there's this, while there's a practical aspect that we're helping them with, you guys really help them with,
there is this like emotional thing of like, yeah, no, a debt is a thing that just, I love that you said it happens to you,
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: mm-hmm.
Rachel Duncan: not the other way around.
I wanna back up a little bit 'cause I think there's a really interesting
point
for a lot of folks who have debt,
Or have debt to pay, as Tiffany Aliche says.
What happened when you were 18,
Usually that's when
You start getting flyers directly [00:21:00] sent to you. And that's often when folks are getting their first credit card that like 18 to range.
I love hearing that part of the story. What was that like? And I'm curious, what do you hear when people talk about, like they're not just the relationship with the money, but the relationship with debt and when that started, what do you hear there?
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: Well, they got a credit card because they were told that that's the only way to build your credit.
That and student loans, and then they were never taught how to, how to use it. I mean, my personal experiences was, I think I was 21. Maybe I was 19, I don't know, early, early twenties or so when I got my first credit card, I didn't know what interest was. Like I didn't understand the concept of what the interest rate was and how I would have to pay interest, and I just thought that if I got a credit card and I put things on it, like eventually they'd get paid off.
And that was to the extent of what I was taught about it. And I felt so much shame. I felt like I was stupid for that being all that I knew. [00:22:00] Now I talk to people daily and that's what most people know. You got approved for it. That means that you can spend on it and then you're good to go. But it's just something that you get because you're told to get it.
Well, I think it's also like this core ritual experience of walking on the college campus and getting a free t-shirt and a slice of pizza for signing up for the credit card. I have so many clients who are like, oh yeah, my first credit card I got on my college campus because there was a booth set up and they told me I could get a T-shirt and like some swag and they're gonna set me up with a credit card. Right. And so you're in the heights of social status and posturing for a partner and you've unfettered access to life away from your parents. Like what was the expectation?
Rachel Duncan: Independence.
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: 19 year olds
Rachel Duncan: Yeah.
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: to go and go off the rails. Right. And I, I think what was the expectation there? Of course, that was gonna end, you know poorly
Rachel Duncan: Yeah.
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: For me, my first card, I didn't get on a college campus, but I got when I was in college and my twin [00:23:00] brother had gotten his first from our bank and was explaining like, yeah, I, I opened up a college credit card and, you know, I, I put a couple things on it and then I pay it off. And I was thinking, okay, well my twin brother did it. It must be right for me to do it as well. This is somebody that I trust and know is safe. We didn't ever have a conversation of, again, interest rate or what credit does or anything. It was kind of just like, oh, my brother said he's got some access to money.
I want some access to money too. Yeah, like that sounds cool. So fomo.
Rachel Duncan: Yeah,
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: Actually, my first credit card now that I'm thinking it wasn't a Visa, it was a Macy's credit card.
Rachel Duncan: there you go.
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: Store card, and I applied for it when I was with a friend who was also in Macy's with me saying that she had. Applied and gotten denied. And I said, well, let me try and see if I can get it. And I got it and then she soon got hers too.
Rachel Duncan: Very much join the club. And they really, man, they pitch you at the, would you like to save 20% on this purchase? Right? And I was like, well, hell yeah.
Yes. Oh, those store credit cards. I think that's the other thing I, I [00:24:00] love
putting really, the setting is so important. Right? Free pizza and a t-shirt or like you're in the store that you love when you wanna be part of it or.
Yeah, I shop here. Anyway, it, it would be stupid to not get this card. And that is the feeling at the moment. And then without this other side of education about like, what does this really mean? It's not free money, how interest works, how you can
Do that and protect your credit, you know, all of all of that stuff.
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: all of
And so many of the people when they're in that really young age, between 18 to 22, especially if they're in college, they've probably never had a paper bill statement ever sent to their house before because maybe they're still on their parents' healthcare, insurance for their car.
They probably don't have a car loan. You know, like they're not paying bills, especially if they're living, in the dorms or something. So then you have this credit card bill and you don't even know how to pay it. You're supposed to write a check like, or how to interpret it or how to understand
Rachel Duncan: Yeah.
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: what any of it says. So there's a lot of, there's a lot [00:25:00] there for those young people. And that was totally me as well.
Rachel Duncan: Yeah. And a lot therefore the 30 or 40 somethings that are, you know, where when this habit got kind of kicked off in their twenties and they're still kind of,
either they've paid it off and it's, and it's kicked back in, or, you know, they still even have that debt from, from way back then there's, there can be a real weight to it and you know, the debt cycle is real.
And one of the things, and I. I forward my clients onto you guys when, yeah, because I don't do like complicated debt payoff, but sometimes like
are we paying too much into the debt
where then the car needs breaks and we put that on the card and now we have more debt because actually like
We're over anxious about how, or over ambitious I should say, about how much we could put towards the debt, where often my clients describe it.
Like when I ask, well, how are you approaching, you know, your debt pay off. I just throw whatever, I don't know, it's like random. I have $500 left. I put it on the card. 'cause that seems like the responsible thing to do. And I recommend actually slowing down the debt payoff. And I'm wondering about how, how you guys approach that.
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: that. [00:26:00] That is something that I like to do when I break down how often someone gets paid.
Rachel Duncan: Yeah.
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: Majority of people get paid every other week, so they're alternating pay periods. You're not gonna have the same expenses in every other pay period. You might have your rent in. It's due on the first, but it's not every other pay period, the way things fall.
Whereas someone who's paid twice a month on the seventh and the 22nd, their pay periods will always kind of be the same. And budgeting techniques online all cater to people who are paid once a month
Rachel Duncan: It's all monthly. Uh, it's so
annoying.
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: But majority of people are paid every other week
Rachel Duncan: Yes.
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: So when we figure that out, we can really iron out that, hey, your second pay period in November, you're actually gonna be negative $700.
Rachel Duncan: Right,
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: But the first pay period in November, you have an excess of $1,200. So in the past, that person may have taken that $1,200 extra dollars and just throwing it on their credit card and then come the second pay period, they're like, oh, snap. I have no money. [00:27:00] I need to put my basic expenses like groceries and gas for my car on the credit card because now I'm short.
And so we really
Rachel Duncan: right.
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: have to figure out the flow of the cash flow and the expenses, what's coming in, what's coming out and when, so that we can pull the trigger on the debt payoff or the savings. When you have the extra money, when can you actually put it somewhere? when you do that, then it's so empowering.
Then that is the true way that we can break the cycle of the over ambitiousness and throwing all of the extra money there to just rack up your credit card next month because you were short and we were unable to prepare for that.
Rachel Duncan: One way I look at it also, it's like, okay, if, if you know you're kind of paying whatever on the debt and it's consuming you and you feel this weight and it's so emotional, then actually like the inconsistency is just feeding that drama. Whereas, you know what, I'm gonna put a hundred bucks on it every month and so I can focus usually on income or, you know, looking at other expenses.
Then it's sort of the beast you feed[00:28:00]
The one you feed is the one that's the biggest and, and to actually kind of,
I would speak like even energetically like, sounds like this debt is taking up a lot of energy. Let's have a more steady just auto pay so that you can focus on the other stuff.
Then, you know, then we'll see if we can accelerate the debt payment and 'cause it can get so consuming. And then, no, we're really talking about income and expenses. That's actually where there'd be much more useful, use of time is to look at those things.
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: Mm-hmm. And if you put minimums on absolutely all of your debt for one or two months, you'll get to the end a little bit slower than you would have, but you're actually gonna be in way more control when you get there. And the energy will just be zen. You will be empowered and in control versus chaotic throwing debt here and there. And then I just hope that it gets paid off. That is so stressful. But if you can just slow down. Give yourself permission, pay minimums on absolutely everything while you just figure things out for a second.
Rachel Duncan: Or even say like, pay [00:29:00] minimums for low ball, so you know what it's like to have some money, you know that that's yours. You know, and, and then some clients are like, I'm nervous about that. When there's money left, I'm gonna spend it. Okay, well then that's, we can talk about that, but like, we don't even know what that's like until we have some cash, some savings to start building up
I kind of talk about like
let's get our arms around what your life actually costs.
'cause I think it's hard to know what your life costs when a big part of it is, is. You're putting towards debt, but like what is just a cash flow
out every month or every year actually look like
I'm so glad you brought up the pay cadence. This pisses me off so much. Another thing of like why this system makes this so impossible so much, you know, budgeting and most bills are monthly and most people are not paid monthly, and so it's this like higher level calculus to figure this out, right?
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: the credit card statements are the worst. Someone, if you pay off your credit card statement in full every month, that's awesome, but you're also paying for something from six weeks [00:30:00] ago. Just the way that this statement ends up falling and when it's due.
'cause it closes on one day and it's not due. That day closes and then it's due two weeks later.
Rachel Duncan: Right,
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: So that is a really complex thing for a lot of people to wrap their heads around. They're like, wait, but I, I just paid it off. And I'm like, yeah, that was literally from August, you know?
Rachel Duncan: You're, you're behind it.
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: They don't teach you that.
Rachel Duncan: Exactly. You're like always kind of catching up in that way. And then also like when someone's ready to use a budgeting app, I know you guys are Monarch fans. I've become a Monarch fan, but most budgeting apps do this where like, okay, you go to the grocery store, you put it on your credit card
the app kind of helps you see that money is spent
even though it's not yet,
and it almost like gets put into like an escrow of sorts and is sort of held. That's why you can't look at your checking account. Like that's not
All yours that a lot of that has been allocated to your credit statement. And that's a
That's a really different way of thinking of things, especially when you're used to, oh, what do I have in my checking account?
I have that to spend. Well, a lot of that is probably belonging to whatever is on the credit card.[00:31:00]
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: yeah. Especially when you're thinking about people that are working on paying off some type of a debt or they may be caught in a debt cycle. The barrier to entry is really difficult we need to make the barrier to entry of working on paying off our debts or building up our savings or tackling other financial goals. We need to make it easier for folks. We need to make it more common sense. And it seems like behind everything there is like. Hidden agenda may not be the right word, but it makes it difficult. It's a systemic problem. Yeah. When you truly look at why debt is viewed a certain way with certain social classes, people with extreme wealth leverage debt to make more money.
Rachel Duncan: Yes.
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: They don't think having debt is a bad thing
Rachel Duncan: Yeah.
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: They have millions and millions of dollars
Rachel Duncan: It's a tool. Yeah.
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: the average
Rachel Duncan: Yeah.
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: middle class person is like, Hey, I have debt. I'm a bad person. So there's that. And then there's also the banks doing this tricky stuff with their statements and the way they wanna just do 0% interest for, 18 months, but not tell you [00:32:00] it's gonna expire.
And then you get back interest for all of that time. And they're not educating on all of this stuff on purpose. Mm-hmm. Because they want to make money on the backs of the people who are working really hard.
Rachel Duncan: Massively profitable. Massively profitable. You know, the little history, I think Morgan Household does a really good job in the Psychology of Money book,
history of, you know, debt and consumerism, you know, really, you know, bringing in consumer debt, being very available and legal and all that stuff really came as rebuilding after World War II
And it was like jet fuel to the economy, right? That like regular folks could borrow money
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: Yeah.
Rachel Duncan: In a pretty easy way. I mean, it's so, yeah, it's a tool. I always think of debt as morally neutral. It's a tool. I just, this year I am carrying a balance I've never have before for my business. I am using it as a business loan, and
and what an incredible tool.
I wouldn't be able to grow my business if I didn't have that. So it can be leveraged. It can also be really entrapping because of the predatory nature of [00:33:00] this stuff. In fact, did you all know that?
The founding fathers believed so strongly in bankruptcy to be able to wipe out debt.
Like that's one of the reasons they wanted to be independent from England because England's bankruptcy laws were not as lenient. I think there were some there, but the, you know, kind of this
Burgeoning American spirit was, no, we need to be able to have debt, take risks in business or whatever,
and if that goes south.
We need that to be wiped clean. So
It's actually like as Americans, very much part of the American spirit is the ability to have debt and to be able to go through bankruptcy. Isn't that interesting?
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: I had that conversation with someone yesterday
Rachel Duncan: Really? Yeah.
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: peeling the onion to unveil that this is something that you can do. This is an option. This is a program. You don't have to suffer.
Rachel Duncan: You mean bankruptcy? Yeah.
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: bankruptcy. Like there are things that can, you don't have to work this hard and be so tired all the time.
There are ways that we can do [00:34:00] this and get out of it,
Rachel Duncan: And it's the American way y'all. I mean, really like,
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: truly is, but going back to the uber wealthy
Rachel Duncan: yeah.
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: who feels bad about filing bankruptcy on a business that failed,
Rachel Duncan: Why?
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: a lot of people don't,
Rachel Duncan: Yep.
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: business owners don't. They're like, well,
Rachel Duncan: That's how it goes.
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: its not my personal problem.
Rachel Duncan: It's a tool. Yeah. Bankruptcy is an incredible tool. And actually I will reference the, a conversation you guys had a couple years back, with, is it Elena?
The bankruptcy lawyer,
lady like there, Adrienne Hines, excuse me, Adrienne Hines. I have sent that episode to so many clients like, look, I'm not giving you legal advice, but I want you to know that there are some options here.
You know, and that has been, oh my gosh, if you're looking at debt consolidation, if you're looking at that kind of program. Also see if bankruptcy is right for you. You are likely at that point where that is also an option. And again, we're not giving legal advice, we're just saying like,
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: we're
Rachel Duncan: there are options there and it doesn't have to be this like moral failure, you know?
And unfortunately the word bankrupt we've has crept into all sorts of, oh, I feel morally bankrupt. I feel emotionally bankrupt. You know, and it's like, well, no, the [00:35:00] actual technical bankruptcy is an pretty incredible tool that we have in this country. Yeah. Okay. What does it look like when someone is done?
I wanna know about like the end of the journey. When do you know, or your clients know that like,
I think I'm good. What does that look like?
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: this is really hard because it looks different for everyone, but
Rachel Duncan: Yeah.
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: done when. Here's a great example. got off a call with someone this week and they said, we decided to take out a loan to leverage debt for this reason, and this is why we did it. And we thought through this process and boom, boom, boom, boom.
And we're really happy we did it. When someone can start to calculate their own decisions like that and really think through the pros and the cons and come back feeling so empowered and excited to tell me that they did this thing, they took on debt and they're really happy they did it because it made sense for them and their situation and their goals. That's when I'm like, I, I think you're ready. [00:36:00] I think you're ready to fly solo. But then at the same time, I think someone's done when they're ready. Like they have to feel ready and confident. Justin, do you push people out of the nest? I don't wanna say, yeah. I don't wanna say that I like push people out of the nest, so to speak, but I, I try and remind people like when they're having success that what they're doing is successful.
Yeah.
Rachel Duncan: Mm. Okay.
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: I wanna name that for people. Like, Hey, you have had success here and here's where that success is. I've been fortunate that a lot of the clients I've worked with have found success and they've been ready to go. I think that for other folks, some people just like the accountability and they're like, I don't care if I feel ready.
Like you, give me the, grace to protect my finances otherwise. So I wanna keep working with you as long as possible. Yeah. And that's a great feeling too. I think that, kind of similar to what you said most folks, I think they're ready when it's clear they're making decisions. Feeling enlightened [00:37:00] from a space of empowerment, not a space of fear or desperation. They are recognizing there are multiple options outside of just A, B, and C, and they are considering how the financial journey looks for decades beyond the singular moment. If somebody is able and demonstrating it, there's zooming out consistently, then I feel like, yeah, you can go do this. Like
Rachel Duncan: Yeah.
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: lets go tackle some other financial goals.
Rachel Duncan: I went in Incre talk about ripple effect. Right? Isn't that, I mean, that's great mental health that is, you know, being able to pause, being able to look at options, be able to, you know, recognize, yeah. Communicate with your partner, be able to recognize what you're responsible for and you're what you're not.
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: not.
Rachel Duncan: Um. To have this more, a little more neutral, especially towards debt. A
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: towards
Rachel Duncan: more neutral approach to debt. Right. That we could, could use debt as a tool or that I am a great person
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: person
Rachel Duncan: have a balance on my credit card, and all of these things can be true.
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: be
Rachel Duncan: These are great. Just like, hmm. All the feels, all the good [00:38:00] stuff.
That's like the real meaning of what we're doing here. So I'm, I'm gonna underline. Done is not debt free,
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: free.
Yeah.
Rachel Duncan: right? Necessarily?
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: not.
Rachel Duncan: Yeah. Yeah.
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: I actually, I got a really great text from a client last Friday. I sent it to Haley. It's a former client who's since graduated and they finished our program. I think it was last year, it might have even been in 2023 that they finished the program and they messaged me and said, you know, I just wanted to give you some updates. I have since paid off all of my debt. have a fully funded emergency fund. I probably could have paid off my debt faster, but I wanted to keep my emergency fund, so it took me three months longer than I wanted to. Uh, kids are doing well. They are on track for their teacher retirement kind of dreams and goals that they had, that they had talked to me about. it was just the coolest text message. It was just like, this is exactly what it's about,
Rachel Duncan: Yeah.
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: the six months or the year that we're
Rachel Duncan: No.
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: It's, you know, I tell[00:39:00]
Rachel Duncan: Yeah. Yeah.
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: have a conversation with me five years from now where you say, dang, I didn't see it then, but I'm living it now. And it's just the most rewarding thing when somebody can, can recognize that down the road there is a light at the end of the tunnel and it may come a little bit later than we want, or it may come sooner, but it is coming
Rachel Duncan: Yes.
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: it's really cool when we get to celebrate it. I.
Rachel Duncan: Yeah. It's a windy road. It's a windy road. It's a little murky but like we're talking legacy in the end. Yeah.
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: Totally. I worked with a client for probably three and a half years, and then they flew solo, and they just had a baby, and they're gonna come back because they just have this massive life thing and they want a little extra support. And I will have been with them for four years and they could totally do this on their own, but they're at a point in their life where they're like, we have this resource. Why would we not use it? We have this person in our corner. If we're struggling with money, let's go to the resource that can help us. Mm-hmm. This person has helped us and that [00:40:00] is really cool to also be able to tell people go do your thing. When something comes up, I'm still here. Yeah. It's not like we just disappear.
Rachel Duncan: that flexibility, right? Like, okay, I knew what my money life was then, but that, yeah, some big life change and come back and revisit. Yeah, I've had that too, where like helping someone with their impulse spending and then suddenly, and then they're all good.
and
Then they get an inheritance. This is a whole other like paradigm.
Absolutely. Come back, check in. It's so important to have a financial aid team, right? Like, let's just talk about this, because the shame lives in darkness and there are so many wonderful professionals who will hold these compassionate conversations to really get to the other side of it.
This is not something you have to do on your own. Yeah.
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: yeah, I mean, shoot, we've worked with you for our own personal finances, right? Haley's reached out to be like, Hey, we even want people on our team who love us, who care about us, who only want the best for us, who are willing to help us sift through ideas and decisions. To make sure that we are considering [00:41:00] what we think we're considering or looking at all angles that maybe we've missed. And I think everybody craves that. Everybody craves folks around them who give a shit and who genuinely care and want the best for them. And so it's cool when, yeah, when somebody leaves and they come back and they say I just wanna check in. You know, can we do a couple mini sessions or whatever it looks. And it's like absolutely, of course, like life changes, things are fluid and we'll always be here whenever somebody's like, I just need to chat
Rachel Duncan: Money friends are the best. Just the best. I love you. I love it. You guys are so wonderful. Thank you for unpacking like this, this debt journey as you see it. And it's so many multitudes, but there's really some universals here and I'm gonna really enjoy re-listening to this and really, charting that out.
So tell me what's going on with price of avocado toast? What are you guys psyched about? What are you offering? How can folks find you?
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: we are doing some really fun stuff, so we're in our one-to-one program counseling folks, and it's been really fun. I've joined Haley now to be doing it [00:42:00] full time and it's been a cool journey. We also built the Empowered Money Academy, which is a lower cost group program. we offer folks who maybe are wanting to get some support on their money journey, but unsure if one-to-one is for them yet. And so that's been really fun to, to grow and expand that. You know, we originally started with a podcast as well, and we've taken this kind of fall, this late summer and fall off of the podcast that we'll probably be starting back up in January.
But for right now, we're kind of just enjoying the season of life and where we're at and how things are going.
Rachel Duncan: That's a wonderful, okay, and everyone can find you at.
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: Price of avocado toast. Yeah, we're really, we're not, too flashy with the branding there. It's price of avocado toast everywhere. All the socials
Rachel Duncan: Everything. Okay. That's what I thought.
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: Yeah. priceofavocadotoast.com is our website where you can find all of our resources and more information about us in our story. Our podcast is price of avocado toast, and all of our social media is at price of avocado toast
Rachel Duncan: That's great. I I keep it simple too. Money Healing club everywhere. Yeah. [00:43:00] Wonderful. Well, thank you so much for sitting down and talking with me about the big topic of debt. You both.
Haley & Justin Brown-Woods: Thank you so much for having us, Rachel. You're the best. Thanks Rachel.
Thanks for listening to the Money Healing Club podcast. You can find resources, links, everything from this episode in the show notes below, or at moneyhealingclub.com/podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, you probably really love my free email course on curbing impulse spending with compassion and mindfulness, you can check it out moneyhealingclub.com/challenge.
Do you have a question or a topic about financial therapy or about just living in this life with money? I'd love to get your voicemail to be featured on a future episode of the podcast. Check it out at moneyhealingclub.com/podcast. You'll see a big orange button there where you can record from any device you're on.
You can also be anonymous. We are in this together and I really appreciate it. See you next time.
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