S3 E55: 🧸 The Money Stories You Inherited Without Ever Choosing Them with Tari Vickery
This podcast is for educational purposes only and does not constitute mental health, financial, tax, or legal advice.
Episode Summary
On this week’s episode Rachel talks with Tari Vickery, a wealth manager and author of The Emotional Side of Money, who has spent decades helping people untangle the money stories they inherited.
They get into why security never arrives at the number you're chasing, how to talk to kids about money without saying "we can't afford it," and how to find the practice that actually calms your nervous system. A warm, story-rich conversation on the Money Healing Club podcast about turning the legacy you were handed into one you choose.
💬 “The security comes from within ourselves of knowing that whatever comes, I will deal with it and I'm gonna be okay." - Tari Vickery
⏰ Episode Breakdown
02:30 | The script you inherited | Tari on the moment in her 40s when she realized scarcity was a story passed down, not just the way things were
07:26 | Why the goalposts keep moving | Security doesn't live in a number, and chasing one keeps it out of reach
20:27 | Beyond "we can't afford it" | Talking to kids about money in a way that teaches values instead of fear
23:15 | What actually calms you | Finding your own money practice rather than the one that's supposed to work for everyone
📚 Resources and links
Tari Vickery is a wealth manager, author, and longtime guide for people navigating the emotional weight of money. Her book The Emotional Side of Money is a collection of stories rather than a how-to, written so you might see yourself on the page and get curious about your own patterns.
Connect with Tari Vickery:
Website: tarikvickeryauthor.com
The Emotional Side of Money: A Roadmapto Financial Wellness, available in paperback, ebook, and audiobook (narrated by Tari), wherever you buy books
Also mentioned:
The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People by Stephen Covey, for its framing of scarcity and abundance
🎙️ Join the Conversation
Click the big orange button on our site, right from your phone or browser, and let Rachel know: what money story did you inherit without ever choosing it? https://www.moneyhealingclub.com/podcast
💝 Support the Podcast
Help keep the Money Healing Club podcast going. If this show has helped you feel less alone or more grounded with money, please consider contributing: https://www.moneyhealingclub.com/podcast
🎧 Your next listen:
S3 E50: 💌 Write a Letter to Your Money And Let It Write Back
🎙️We're a proud member of the Feminist Podcasters Collective where creators like me are uplifting diverse voices and driving meaningful change.
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Tari Vickery (00:00)
Think of this person as as a little girl sitting on a curb that you see crying, maybe a child you don't even know. But you sit down next to her and you put your arm around her and you say, sweetheart, tell me what's wrong. Tell me what's
bothering you.
Rachel Duncan (00:14)
you
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (00:18)
Welcome to the Money Healing Club podcast. I'm your host, Rachel Duncan. I'm a certified financial therapist and art therapist, and you've come to the softest place to land in personal finance.
Just a reminder, this podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only and is not a substitute for mental health care, financial, tax, or legal advice.
In today's episode, I'm talking with Tari K. Vickery, author of The Emotional Side of Money.
Tari has spent over 25 years managing the full financial lives of her clients, everything from bill pay to coordinating with wealth managers and estate attorneys. And she pairs this with a sociology degree from Stanford and her own wild financial ups and downs, which she gets really honestly into in her book. In this conversation, Tari and I get into the money scripts we inherit from our families before we're even old enough to question them.
We talk about how even as a financial professional, Tari's own money healing journey really didn't begin until her 40s, when the words scarcity and abundance became pivotal concepts for her. We talk about how I have a chip on my shoulder about those words. We talk about how couples can have the exact same money fight so many times in a row.
We talk about one of Tari's wealthy clients who wouldn't buy her daughter an American girl doll, but what it taught her about naming your real values instead of just saying we can't afford it, if that's not the case. and my personal favorite, what Tari's money looks like as an imaginary creature. Spoiler, it's actually not scary at all. It's really friendly. Tari gives us a rare blend of academic insight and deep empathy. And I could listen to her tell stories.
All day. She really is a storyteller.
This episode is for you if you feel shame around your money, and that shame is blocking you from looking at it. If money talks with your partner goes sideways in really predictable ways, or if you're a parent wondering how much financial truth your kids can handle, let's talk about what we don't usually say when we talk about the emotional side of money with Tari K. Vickery.
Rachel Duncan (02:20)
you
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (02:24)
Tari thank you for coming to the Money Healing Club podcast to talk about your wonderful book and your work.
Tari Vickery (02:30)
Thank you so much, Rachel. I've really look forward to this.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (02:33)
Well, this is great. So I what I love about your book is you get right to the meat of it, which I love. I'm a Scorpio. I don't do small talk. And you get right to the the inheritance that we get in terms of money stories. How we're how, you know, even as an adult and we're looking at money, like but we're carrying this history behind us. And I wanna t tell me how you see like family of origin impacting our our money lives.
Tari Vickery (02:59)
Well, I think it starts with my own family. which goes back three generations where the women were the breadwinners at a time when women were not breadwinners, and where the men left their families and did not provide support, financial support or any kind of support. And so I come from a long line of scrappy women who
did what they needed to do to be able to put food in the mouths of their children and a roof over their head. And so because my own legacy is so deeply entrenched in scarcity, I feel like I have a first row seat to this experience. And I know firsthand how that legacy got carried forward. The lessons I learned, the messages I heard,
Growing up as a child. And but I think it's it doesn't matter whether your background or your legacy is one of scarcity, whatever it might be. you know, kids grow up hearing about money, but typically not being talked to about money,
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (04:11)
Yeah.
Tari Vickery (04:13)
they process it through whatever age their little brain is. They get no opportunity to test what they think they heard.
And then it just builds on layers upon layers of
things that they consider to be information, which is really what I would call baggage.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (04:33)
Which is the kind of information. It is the kind of information. But you're yeah,
it has that bias. And I'm wondering for you, like, was there a point in your sort of, was it in your adulthood where you notice like, whoa, this is a script. This is like, you know, I think sometimes we go through life like, this is just how it is. And then you realize, no, it's just me. And I'm wondering if you had that.
Tari Vickery (04:54)
the realization that it was a script really came in my 40s, so way into my adulthood. I was reading Stephen Covey's book, The Seven Habits of Highly Effective Living, and he identified scarcity and abundance. And my recollection, how accurate this is, I don't know.
But my recollection is that scarcity was the concept that we all there's one big pie. And if you take a piece of pie, there's that much less pie for me. And abundance is the concept that there's pie. And if we run out of pie, we just make more. And that spoke to me at such a deep level that I'm telling you about it all these years later because it gave me words.
to describe what I had grown up feeling, that scarcity. And at the time I couldn't envision ever being able to believe that we just make more pie. And I've gotten
to that place.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (06:04)
and okay, I should have warned you, I have this like chip on my shoulder about those words. More because I think they're overused without really understanding them. And I I
I actually really appreciated in your book that you like you unpacked it. And even I had this thought to myself, okay, Tari may be helping me like accept the word abundance.
Tari Vickery (06:24)
Ha ha ha.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (06:25)
or scarcity, because I also see like there are times where scarcity is absolutely the fact you cannot make
money.
And you have to deal with what you've got.
Tari Vickery (06:33)
And that's where I was when I read.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (06:35)
absolutely right. And there are very real lived lives, people even listening to this podcast of like, yeah, if I spend on that, that means no groceries next week. That is a fact for a lot of people. So
Tari Vickery (06:46)
absolutely.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (06:47)
as I kind of feel like, well, sure, scarcity, you know, when when things don't have to be scarce, do we have a scarce mindset?
You know.
and then I also think the term abundance can get whitewashed is sort of magical thinking. So that's why I like backup from those words. But I actually appreciate like just bringing it back and unpacking it a little bit of like when they can be really helpful terms.
when like, hey, I'm still living as if there's scarce resources when there actually aren't. Is is that sort of what you mean? Like when you came to realize that?
Tari Vickery (07:20)
Well, when I when I read it, I absolutely was in the midst of it. It the it was not a matter of of it wasn't real. It was very, very real. and I appreciate you sharing that because I've not heard that from other people. And I think because I internalized it so deeply and it's so meaningful to me, those terms, that it's it's interesting to hear your perspective on it.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (07:46)
Just my little thing, I dont know.
Tari Vickery (07:48)
I understand it. I'm
the same way about the word budget. I mean it's like I'm gonna date myself here. It's like fingernails on a blackboard.
which many of your listeners aren't gonna know what that means.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (08:00)
You guys, there used to be this thing called blackboards.
Tari Vickery (08:03)
In classrooms and teachers scratched their fingernails on it and it was the most horrible sound.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (08:11)
Yeah, but I get that. Yes. And the word budget has has a lot of hm a lot of baggage to that word as well. Which and it's also a simple word. Like we could say, it's got all this connotation and also, hey, it is a simple word to describe a thing and it's shorthand for us to understand. Mm. Yeah.
Tari Vickery (08:28)
You
know, that's the point. It's shorthand. And I think that's what happens. And I think so many folks who have this anxiety around money, there's so much shorthand. You know, it might be a word their parents used or a phrase their parents used, or it might be something that triggered an argument between their parents. And maybe they don't even realize that one word is the catalyst for.
Anxiety. So I love that we're having this conversation and it's a really different perspective than any that I've had with anybody else.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (09:05)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I think also like I think my issue with abundance is that that is my personal growth edge.
You know, I I actually relate it a lot to what you're telling in your the stories of you in in your book. Right. I come from many generations of making do people. And so
that is going to be my default, is making do. And
Tari Vickery (09:24)
Yeah.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (09:24)
like, don't ask for more or don't be greedy and there isn't enough to go around. And that's definitely my home lane. And
You know, and so the income side of it, the, you know, quote abundance side of it has been hard for me to lean into. So I think there's there's a little bit of that for me too. It's like, I don't know, I I haven't quite resolved that part for me either, you know.
Tari Vickery (09:50)
Well, and I would add for me, my what I've experienced, abundance is certainly not just related to finances. It's a way of life. You know, it again, it's that there's enough pie that if we if we run out, we'll we'll just make more. And the trust in myself. And you know, as as I I've often said, the security doesn't come from a number that we think if we only had that much money.
Then we would feel secure. And then we get that much money. And guess what? We don't feel secure. We just keep moving our own goalposts. And
the security comes from within ourselves of knowing that whatever comes, I will deal with it and I'm gonna be okay. And I think that takes a lot of years, to be honest. I I think it's just lived life of.
knowing that okay, with everything that's happened, I've survived. I'm still here.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (10:52)
Yeah.
Yeah. You know, and I I I'm sure you work with the topic of money shame, right? That's often
Tari Vickery (10:59)
Yeah.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (11:00)
the topic that our clients are coming to us with number one. And and I I hold with s it's so sacred that here we are sharing a thing that you know, our clients don't feel like they can share, you
Tari Vickery (11:12)
Yeah.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (11:13)
know, anywhere else. And that, you know, even though they're coming with the shame, you have booked this call.
you are listening to this podcast, like you are taking steps out of that shame.
Tari Vickery (11:20)
Yes.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (11:23)
And the reason it is uncomfortable is because you haven't done it before. Right. And it but it is, it's like look at you asking for help, which is also like, I think an aspect of maybe abundance is like just to get away from like any bootstrapping philosophy is like it's also receiving help. asking
Tari Vickery (11:41)
Absolutely.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (11:42)
for help, booking that call.
you know, receiving from community, family, whatever it is that is also a missing equation in abundance sometimes.
Tari Vickery (11:52)
I completely agree. And it reminds me so many times with clients, the work I do, I have a team, there are four of us, and we handle people's money. sometimes it's because a spouse who took care of the family finances has died or maybe there's a divorce, whatever the cause is, we are able to handle their money for them. And so many times I it takes a year from the time I get a first call.
until somebody engages. And I think that first call relieves the pressure.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (12:27)
Yeah. Even though it's so scary for them.
Tari Vickery (12:29)
Yes, yes. And then
talking through it and having the conversation, I think, just kind of dissipates the anxiety enough and then it builds and builds enough that they eventually call again to
get the to get more specific help.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (12:46)
Right, if that trust can be built. Right. Is this someone
Tari Vickery (12:49)
Yeah.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (12:49)
who can see me, not judge me, which
Tari Vickery (12:52)
Yes, yes.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (12:53)
can be hard to find in financial professionals. There's some judgies out there. And a lot of
I know of my work is also helping folks kind of heal from maybe some, you know, some hurtful guidance or some people who were judgy or people in their lives. But it's like my main goal is to make it just such a positive first experience that they will book another call, you know, because that's
my god I love there are roosters because you live in Hawaii. Okay, everyone, we have to keep the rooster in.
Tari Vickery (13:24)
Yeah, they're all day long.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (13:25)
right. Tari lives in Hawaii and I understand that roosters run amok there. roosters and chickens everywhere.
Tari Vickery (13:30)
Yes, and chickens. Yes, yeah.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (13:34)
so Tari tell me how did you come from like, you know, doing this sort of group practice to then to to make this book happen? Like what was
What was the catalyst for writing this book? Which by the way, before you say, I need to hold it up so everyone sees. The Emotional Side of Money by Tari Vickery, a roadmap to financial wellness, which I got a copy.
Tari Vickery (13:54)
And I love that you have little tabs in it.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (13:57)
yeah. yeah. I'm a student, always a plus student here.
Tari Vickery (14:00)
thank you for that.
Yeah. So I've been talking about writing it for some time because I the clients that I work with, family, friends, you know, we talk about money more than than probably most families and friends do, just simply because it's of interest to me and the type of work I do. but so I've been talking about it for a long time and I I just have observed what's in the book. You know, there are stories.
It's a book of stories.
And I hope that that readers will see something of themselves in some stories. You know, they're not gonna see themselves in all, but that it will trigger the thoughts that will help them investigate for themselves why do I do that? Why does that upset me? Why do we always fight at this point? I mean, you know, sometimes we could fight by number with our
with our spouse or or our partner. You know, we've had the same argument so many times that and we know nothing bad's going to happen. We're gonna have the argument. Everybody's gonna calm down eventually and it's gonna be okay and we'll move on. But we could say 45 and okay, well okay, we all know what what for fight forty five is and just not and just dispense with the whole argument.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (15:25)
Is true because it's like, because I've got my money scripts and my money patterns, this person has their money scripts and money patterns, and here we ping pong back and forth with each other. Well, so one thing I'm curious about. Well, you have a whole section of money within families, and you have a chapter on partners and money, kids and money, families and money, and dying in money, which I really appreciate that you include end of life stuff. Could you tell me a little bit more about those aspects?
Tari Vickery (15:53)
Well, obviously they're very different, you know. And one of the, as you know, the at the end of each chapter are is a section called Something to Think About. And part of what I want to accomplish with the book is encouraging people to get to the point where they can talk about money. And so the something to think about starts with helping the reader think about the issues that were brought up in the stories in that chapter, and then encouraging them to figure out
what they actually think about that, because most of us haven't invested time to think about what we think about money or why. And so if we can start by identifying and getting clear on more clarity on what we think, then in those chapters there's another section about how to have a conversation, either with our kids or our partner.
to be able to encourage those conversations. And so that's that's the focus on those chapters is to hopefully encourage people to really have converse deep, meaningful conversations that will find out what does your partner think? You know, I had a wonderful experience with a young couple that was newly married and I actually gave them a session of my time as their wedding present.
But they'd gone together about three years. They'd been married about six months when we met. And they've never talked about money. As so many of us don't.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (17:27)
Yep.
Tari Vickery (17:28)
And as we were talking, something came up and you could the tension kind of rose. and I said, Well, so ask the guy, I said, when you needed money growing up, how did you get it? And he said,
He did chores and if he needed more money than it than he got on his allowance, then his parents helped him find other ways to make some money. And I asked her how she had gotten money, and she said, Well, I just put it on daddy's credit card. And that's what they were they were both doctoral students, and that's what she continued doing. And he apparently was trying to take care of the finances by himself, and he kept getting these.
credit cards and you know, having arguments. And they just looked at each other literally with their jaws dropped. Because they had never found out or even discussed what they'd grown up with and what they
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (18:22)
Right.
Tari Vickery (18:23)
thought. And she they both thought they were doing it quote right.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (18:27)
Right. And I think that's the thing. It's like we're we're we're doing what we're doing with money. We've never stepped back to to understand the story, or it's a story that's just so integrated that we've never pulled it apart. And yeah, when I when I ask my clients to kind of tell their life story in the aspect of money, it's like all of these aspects I knew about, but I've never told it all as one story. And that's
really impactful. Like the it's sort of like that's then that is the way.
That that's why things are the way they are. Or, yeah, that was really hard when I was 19. Of course that would still be impacting me in my 40s. or yeah, this taught me some fundamental things and was reinforced. Like both of those behaviors that you described were socially reinforced by their families of origin, which is gonna like kind of lock stuff up until you really get to work with it Yeah.
Tari Vickery (19:16)
That's absolutely true. Yes.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (19:18)
Well, let's talk family of origin real quick.
'Cause you do bring up family
Tari Vickery (19:20)
Okay.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (19:21)
of origin real quick. or you you do you do in the book. So tell me I mean, this is the huge the biggest question ever. So how do you see family of origin impacting how we are with money?
Tari Vickery (19:33)
I think it's critical to to how we process information and what we think. but the the other piece of it is as you just said, we think that what we heard as children, like I said before, you never get a chance to to check that, what we thought we heard, which may not have been what we heard at all. But
Then we act as if that's truth.
And it may or may not be.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (20:04)
Yeah.
Tari Vickery (20:04)
And then we build on that as our truth, we internalize it as our truth, and we get it, as you say, entrenched. And
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (20:08)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Tari Vickery (20:14)
then we get in a partnership with somebody with whom it is imperative that we talk about money or deal with money. And that person has never done the work on theirs either. And so you've got
Two people
come together and no wonder there's conflict. No wonder money is always in the top three reasons for divorce. And I will go on to say this couple I was talking about, they divorce within a year. Yeah.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (20:41)
really? Yeah.
You're right. there's what's not said is often as important as what's what is said.
So I appreciate in your book you take it the level deeper, which as a therapist, I really appreciate that we're talking also intergenerational stuff. You you know, have a chapter called trauma transfer and intergenerationally, even in the story that you
described of like the women in your family were so sadly I ended up repeating, not consciously of course, but repeating these financial situations, passing down both probably financial trauma and financial strengths to get through.
so let's let's talk about the trauma transfer. How would you describe that?
Tari Vickery (21:20)
Well, it happens I th I think by osmosis. it's it's and it's not checked from generation to generation, which is why it keeps getting passed down. And that's why turning the legacy we inherited into a legacy we choose for our own children is so critically important because we whatever legacy we inherited
We can stop and we can unpack that and we can, you know, work with it and we can make inroads. But for me, realizing that most first and foremost, I don't want to pass this on to my children is the thing that that I think was a major factor in my being able to shift my my own thinking so that I could you know, I as I say, I I still left them enough baggage that they had plenty to play with. but
But, you know, they have no idea how much there was before I before it got to them.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (22:21)
Yeah. And I think it's such an opportunity when when I talk with folks who are parents themselves, is like we have a great opportunity here, right? That it's not just for you. It is the legacy. It is, you know, being a cycle breaker. It is also,
especially for people who have children still in the house, is this is an opportunity to to connect with them. Like it's not just about, I want them to do better with money than I am. We're all doing money right here. What a great playground.
To play this out,
Tari Vickery (22:51)
So many opportunities, you know,
and it's it's i it you don't need to have one conversation. You don't wanna just have one conversation. I'm gonna have
the conversation, the money talk. No. You you start by talking to them when you're at Target and they're wanting to buy something. And instead of saying we can't afford it, which you well could afford it if that's why you wanted to spend your money, you know, you you use that opportunity to tell them whatever you want to convey, which might be
I just don't think that's a good use of our money or whatever your reason is for not wanting to buy it. But so many times, parents will just say, we can't afford that. I don't know that all I'm not saying all parents do that, Yes.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (23:35)
But you're right. It's it's one of those shorthands. Yeah.
When it's a and it's not accurate. And then like what are we teaching? we can't afford anything. Yes.
Tari Vickery (23:43)
Yes, kids know
I had a wonderful example of a of a relatively wealthy client who would not buy her daughter an American girl doll because she just felt like that was too much money to spend on a doll. And it was just a value decision. But she had told her daughter, who was extremely precocious,
that they couldn't afford it. And I pushed back on it and said, you know, that's not right. That's not accurate. And she knows that's not accurate because she's a very bright child. And I said, I think it would serve you much better to explain to her why you're you're unwilling to spend the money to buy the American Girl Doll. And ultimately, interestingly enough, the her parents and each grandmother went together.
All of them were wealthy. But they went together and pulled their money to buy the one American girl doll. But they, you know,
they shared with her that they each gave a portion. They shared with the
child, you know, each gave a portion to make it possible. Because that was what their values were.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (24:54)
That is what their values were, right? I mean, and that conversation could have gone a lot of ways. Could be like, this
is something really important to you. I don't have the same values, but I'll support you in getting it, right? That could be another
another way. Well then I left the story because now she's got this, you know, this doll that actually has a lot more meaning that all the women in her family contributed. You know, in this way it kind
of like did that is that more aligned in alignment for this family. Yeah,
Tari Vickery (25:18)
Yeah.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (25:19)
yeah, that's beautiful.
So what what are some of your favorite money practices? We we talked that we've got a similarity in doing the Dear Money Letters, which I shared
on a previous episode of the podcast. and that's something you like to do as well. What what other kind of open-ended practices do you enjoy doing, like either in the book or with your client?
Tari Vickery (25:39)
Well, I sometimes wonder if I'm OCD because one of my money practices, and as you know from reading the book, we went through some really, really difficult financial times. And the thing that got me through was looking at my bank account and knowing exactly where I stood. You know, it might be that I couldn't do anything about it in the moment, but at least I knew what was in the account. I knew what bills were coming up.
I knew I maybe didn't know where the money was coming from, but by opening the the bank account on a daily basis, or in my case it was my quicken, but I kept it current. that gave that that for whatever reason calmed my nervous system. And so one of the money practices I would encourage your listeners is to figure out for yourself what does calm your nervous system.
And whatever that is, take advantage of it and use it because the higher our anxiety is, the less our brain works. And this is not scientific. This is just my own experience with my own brain and my own self. but I think having some kind of a for me, having a system was very important. Now
I will say that my brain is very sequential. My husband's brain is popcorn. So a system would not help him at all. That that would not calm his nervous system. In fact, it
would probably increase his anxiety. So I understand that, but I'm saying it's important to find for yourself and to do the reflecting work to determine what it is that I can do. Maybe it's going outside. I am literally a tree hugger. I have
I I have something I call my sacred forest just down the hill. And I have a tree that is my hugging tree and it fits my body just perfectly. And maybe it's crazy, but it helps me. It helps me feel connected to the universe and to nature and I get peace from that. So whatever works for you is what matters, not what some works
for someone else.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (28:00)
I'm in Colorado. I'm in the land of tree hugging hippies. So I'm I'm all about it. Yeah, I'm right there. I think that's right. It's finding the things that calm calm your nervous system. For some, it is checking more often. I I think for some, you know, when I talk to folks who are really money avoidant, it's like it sounds like it was it's been too much for you. So avoidance has been a way to calm your nervous system.
But in this way, we also know it's kicking the can down the road where there's a buildup of issues.
So yeah, I I agree. I think finding a cadence that works for just being informed. We'd rather know than not know. And not everybody. Right, right, right.
Tari Vickery (28:34)
Not everybody.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (28:37)
Some knowledge though, right? This is what we're going towards is like some knowledge of what's going on with your money is probably gonna be better than none.
Tari Vickery (28:44)
Well, and I think even
for those people who don't want to know, knowing would be helpful because it's likely not as bad as you've built up in your mind. and that's extremely hard to encourage people for whom it is so painful. I work with so many of these folks, and and I hope my compassion came through the book. You know, as I say,
think think
Think of this person as as a little girl sitting on a curb that you see crying, maybe a child you don't even know. But you sit down next to her and you put your arm around her and you say, sweetheart, tell me what's wrong. Tell me what's bothering you.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (29:28)
you
don't say make a budget and stick to it. You don't say that. Yeah, it's like this is hard.
Tari Vickery (29:31)
Yeah, right. And and and that little girl may be yourself. You know, you
do that for yourself and the kindness to yourself, which can help overcome some of the shame, I hope. But then as well the kindness and compassion of folks who really do have some information that might be helpful and being willing to open that door to give them a chance to be able to help you.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (29:59)
I'm wondering, Tari about and this is also me flirting with the idea of book writing because I'm just in awe of anyone who can do it. But in the process of writing the book, I'm wondering what you learned about yourself and your own relationship with money even further.
Tari Vickery (30:16)
what a wonderful question. well, first let me say I came to Hawaii to write my book. And I thought I'd be here about six months. And COVID hit. And Hawaii was one of the safest places literally in the world to be during COVID. And so I stayed and ended up buying a home. And I've been here now almost seven years. So the the the process of writing it was
pretty elongated. And then the process of getting it published was even more elongated because it could be. You know, there I wasn't in any hurry to get it done. And I believe so strongly that everything happens in its perfect timing. And so in the there was a lot of time that elapsed is my point.
And through the course of that, I had a book coach who was also a life coach. So there were times when
I would be writing about something that was so painful to me. And it stirred up so much that I'm grateful to have had my coach to be able to help me through those points where I didn't get stuck. I never had a sense of
writer's block. because I I think probably because of my coach.
But there were certainly lots of tears. And you know, getting as you say, with your talking with with your members, telling the whole story all together, just that process is very revealing. And it triggered so much as I would share stories and different things. so I as far as what I learned, I learned it is a process.
You know, it's a marathon, it's not a sprint. And I do feel like I got to the other side and my feeling of security and abundance that I have today came out of that process. But start to finish, it was about a six year process. So it's not a it's it's not something that is a one and done.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (32:27)
That's a slog. Yeah, that's a slog. I I can imagine. And it's it is. It's I don't think I've I've really I've picked up a money book recently that is so storytelling and literary. And you know, I don't think anywhere in here you have a now we're gonna get to nuts and bolts about money. Like so
many money books do that are trying to talk about the emotions or you know, whatever, but it's like, okay, then we have to have Yeah.
Tari Vickery (32:51)
It's kind of a sidebar, isn't it, for a lot of
a lot of folks. And you know, I was so struck when the book first published in May, I had three different people within about a two-week time period say something similar to, I can't, I don't want it to end.
I've slowed down my reading because I don't want it to end. And I was just gobsmacked to think that anybody would say that.
And not only anybody, but three different people said some version of the same thing, which thrilled me beyond words.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (33:26)
Yes.
I think you've really taken so much care and put so much of yourself in it, which is I think also another thing we don't always see with money books. Sometimes yes, but like that there's so much of yourself and that it is about like the stories that we've lived, the stories that we've inherited. And yeah, and then nowhere in here, I'm so glad the therapist in me is just like, she never gets into into okay, now let me give you some financial education one on one.
'Cause there's a thousand other books for that. That's fine. That's not what this book is. And
I think, you know, I think this book is just such a good accompaniment to then while you're working on the nuts and bolts, which are is inevitable with money, but to have, you know, if anyone's finding that just insurmountable, maybe taking a sidebar, getting into the emotional and the storytelling aspect of money could really open things up to then the practical stuff isn't as hard when you've worked through the emotion.
Tari Vickery (34:21)
That that is my hope. And I will add, you know, my clients, I had a lot of trepidation about putting revealing all of that. None of my clients were aware of my
personal trials and tribulations around money. you know, people some clients knew some parts of it. I mean, I've got clients that I've now had for over 20 years. I've got a number of clients for over 20 years.
And so we know each other, you know, and I mean I've had Thanksgiving dinner with some of them. I've been brought into the family, and I treasure those relationships, of course. But even at that, I there was no reason to go into some of what's in the book of the details of of the struggles around money. And so, you know, I had one client who said, I I thought I knew you well, but I realized that.
There was a lot more that I didn't know. And so far nobody has said, gosh, I don't want to work with you anymore.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (35:27)
No, if anything, it's like, I really trust you, you know, that
you have walked this and pr I think it's trust building. I think, you know, we're all running around feeling like everyone else has it worked out and I'm the only one that's got all this going on, but we're all feeling that. Like we all actually have a lot more going on internally or in our history that we all do a lot of work not showing.
Tari Vickery (35:50)
And and
what so many of us think we're alone. We feel so alone.
I did have one one client who's who is who struggles with the whole concept of money. And and she said it was so helpful to hear that I'm not alone.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (36:09)
Yeah, that's the biggest one. I think anyone who picks up your book will feel that
Tari Vickery (36:13)
I hope so.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (36:15)
What was your favorite part of this book to write?
Tari Vickery (36:17)
You know, it's so fascinating that there are so many parts of the book that honestly I feel came through me. And this may sound airy fairy, and I don't mean it too, but I would go back and read things and I thought, I don't remember writing that. And time and again as I was reading draft after draft after draft, I would think, damn, this is good. So
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (36:42)
Who wrote that? Yeah.
Tari Vickery (36:47)
You know, I I love working with kids, with young people. So I think probably the chapter on kids and money was fun. because of the fact that I feel like when I work with kids, I'm they have a lifetime. And by kids, I mean my youngest client that I started working with was 12 when we started work and I mean helped them help 12-year-olds get bank accounts. I think now they have to be 15, but at the time they could get bank accounts at 12.
I've got one young woman I started working with at 13. She's now 24, lives in London. and at 13, her mother was giving her a dollar a week allowance. And I said, that doesn't give her enough to make any mistakes.
So let's think about this. And so she tracked her spending for a year to we identified categories, and then she tracked.
the those categories, the spending, or actually I did for her, but and then at the at the beginning of the next year, we took that total money she'd spent per year, divided it by 12, and gave her that much allowance, which was a significant allowance for a middle school age kid, which was several cups two or three hundred dollars. But there were months that she needed more money than her allowance would give her. So she had to learn
That okay, I gotta save some money from some months to have enough money in other months. You know, the whole thing we all have to go through when we get a paycheck.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (38:19)
Yeah. But to actually have that experience as a young person.
Tari Vickery (38:23)
And she literally was doing her own quicken. She was providing me monthly reports of what where she was spending her money, starting when she was thirteen. So she went to grad school in London. She was able to negotiate for her own flat.
She handles her all of her own money. She works, she fortunately inherited money. And so she's working directly with her wealth manager, with her mother and me included, so that we provide a safety net for her. But this young woman is absolutely set for life in terms of knowing what money means. She buys her clothes at consignment stores. She didn't have a cell phone until she was a junior in high school.
When that was probably very I would assume was very difficult because her other friends all had cell phones. But things don't matter to this young woman. And I just can't help but think that being focused on her money from the time she was 13 and getting her set up with this system is what has helped her be now 24 and fully functioning as an adult around her finances.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (39:37)
You know, what a tremendous story also of like it doesn't have to all be inside the family. Like we're also impacted by people outside of our, you know, parents or our primary caregivers, and that other people can totally be involved to help help kids grow with this and be able to support them through their own mistakes emotionally,
letting them struggle, letting them figure themselves out, but not letting them get hurt. And I think walking that line, some parents I think struggle with.
you you know what's enabling and what's actual support. and I think that's very cool that they brought someone in that young to support them with that. Because that helped the family.
Tari Vickery (40:13)
yes, it did. to your point, I had another client who who couldn't let go. When the son bought a those old air rifles, you know, the the the paintball air thing,
he ordered it and when it came, his mother made him send it back. He ordered it out of his own money. It was the same s a similar setup where you know he would have enough money to be able to
make some mistakes, but pay for his own expenses. But when he when he ordered this thing that she didn't approve of, or she didn't think he needed to spend the money on it, was the issue. It wasn't that the item was something she didn't approve of, you know, she made him send it back. Well, it was game over. You know, she couldn't stay with the program to help to give him the opportunity to learn for himself that okay, you've spent all this money on this toy.
And now you don't have money to spend on something you actually need because you spent the money on the toy. Those are the kinds of lessons the kids learn from. But the parents
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (41:17)
Yeah. Yeah.
Tari Vickery (41:19)
have to be committed to it, to letting them make the mistakes,
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (41:21)
Yes. And I think and the commitment
is to sitting with the discomfort of
Tari Vickery (41:27)
Yes.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (41:27)
only providing emotional support and not the practical support and
Tari Vickery (41:30)
Yeah. Yeah.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (41:32)
seeing where the kids can have their own resources 'cause just like you said, actually science does back it up. We don't fully think when we are in anxiety. And so like, okay, if I can help you with anxiety, then you're you can utilize your whole brain and and
come up with some solutions. I mean, it's fantastic actually. I've been really trying that with I have I have two kids and it was actually I was recording a podcast the other day. They were on the other side of this door playing their video games, hooping and hollering, having a great time. So I I hated to interrupt them, but it was disrupting my work. And so I had I coached myself for a second. I was like, okay, I just need them to shut up, but I can't say that, right? So I said, We have a problem guys. I'm recording in the other room and you're having such a good time, it's getting in the way.
What ideas do you have?
Tari Vickery (42:19)
Wow.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (42:20)
And the oldest said, tape. And he went and got packing tape and they put tape on their mouths. And it totally worked. And they were grunting
Tari Vickery (42:26)
Wow. Yeah.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (42:30)
like pigs. It was adorable. They had a great time. And anyone, don't call CPS. It was like, you know, 15 minutes. It was of their own will. They could breathe. But it was so funny. That is absolutely not the solution I would have thought of.
But I love these like we're not gonna rely on willpower here. We can put something on to remind us to not make noises. So I mean, not money related, but that's the kind of win we're like, gosh, this
Tari Vickery (42:53)
Yes.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (42:53)
is a pickle. What do you think? Right?
Tari Vickery (42:56)
Yeah. And letting
them be involved in the solution.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (43:00)
Yes. Yes. We all want to be involved in the solution. And even very young kids can be involved with the solution. I think sometimes we think, they can't, you know, they're just kids or they won't know. And I think we might be surprised with the solutions that they have. And you know, I I work a lot with impulse spenders and as adults and I do I I delight when I hear that they're parents because it's like, ask your kids to help catch you in the act.
And
tell your kids you want to impulse spend less and they would love to monitor you. And and in a fun way of bringing them in, of like the kids helping helping mom or dad or or their parents, whomever, to to stick to their own financial reminders, right? So it's a fun thing to do. And look at this, we can make it fun. It doesn't have to be all like money. Yeah.
Well, Tari I think you're a real storyteller. And I am so glad you wrote the book that you wrote.
Tari Vickery (43:55)
Well, I
I'm excited that you're like I said to you before, you know, I think we could finish each other's sentences because we we seem to be on a very similar same wavelength. And so I
just appreciate your support and you know, you're sharing it with your listeners.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (44:10)
Absolutely. Also Tari I want to ask you the question I ask most of my guests is I want you to take a beat, take a breath, and I want you to picture your money as a creature, real or imagined, and if you're open to sharing your first intuitive hit of what that is.
Tari Vickery (44:30)
It's a big fluffy stuffed animal. It's cuddly. it's it calms my nervous system. And it's it's something that is my friend.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (44:45)
Very friendly. And in this moment, if you're to ask that creature, is there anything it needs from you right now to feel more complete? Wondering if it says anything.
Tari Vickery (44:56)
Mm.
A trust.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (45:00)
Trust. Yeah. Which is such an interesting word because it's a financial term as well, isn't it?
Tari Vickery (45:08)
Yes.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (45:10)
Yeah, that's beautiful. Trust. That's a big one. My nervous system just went like woo
Tari Vickery (45:15)
Ha ha.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (45:16)
Very nice. Well, Tari thank you so much. And let us know how how can folks get in touch with you or get in touch with your book.
Tari Vickery (45:24)
Well, the book's available anywhere, anywhere you buy books, on audio, ebook, or paperback. And yes,
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (45:33)
that's great. You have audio as well. Great.
Tari Vickery (45:34)
I do. And I recorded it. That was fun. Yeah.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (45:37)
Awesome. that's fun. that's great.
Tari Vickery (45:40)
Yeah. and then of course my website is tarikvickeryauthor.com And it's got a Hawaiian theme.
I love it so much that I occasionally open it just to look at it. but there's all kinds of it it has my email. I cherish hearing from readers and listeners. And I would in I would love to engage in a conversation if that would be helpful. so the opportunity the abilities there, you know, through the contacts and all of that. But it has a lot of of information.
Rachel Duncan CFT ATR-P (46:14)
Great. Well, we will link to everything in the show notes. It's a beautiful book and you do beautiful work. I'm so glad to know you. Thank you, Tari
Tari Vickery (46:20)
Thank you so much,
Rachel.
Rachel Duncan (46:22)
you
Rachel Duncan (46:26)
Well, guess what? You are now the kind of person who listens to a money podcast. Congratulations! If this episode landed for you, if it opened you up to a new way of thinking about money, I'd love for you to rate and review the show wherever you listen. Apple reviews are especially helpful though. Those reviews really do make a difference. They help other people find these conversations. And honestly,
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Rachel Duncan (47:56)