S2 E17: 🔄 When budget culture meets diet culture w/ anti-diet dietician Lean Kern
EPISODE SUMMARY
Rachel and Leah Kern, an anti-diet dietician from the Shoulders Down podcast explore the striking parallels between budget culture and diet culture. How do these two systems use similar tactics of restriction, shame, and unrealistic standards to keep us trapped in destructive cycles?
The conversation explores:
How both diet and budget culture are rooted in white patriarchy and privilege
The binge-restrict cycle that happens with both food and money
How understanding the "want beneath the want" can help break these cycles
Why shame is never an effective motivator for lasting change
💬 "It's not the money, it's the restriction."
Key takeaways from the episode:
Both budget culture and diet culture promise simple solutions but fail to address deeper emotional needs
The "f- it" moment happens in both cycles when restriction becomes unbearable
Progress isn't linear - healing your relationship with money or food means the magnitude and frequency of binges decreases over time
Often our spending or eating addresses an unmet need - identifying that "want beneath the want" is crucial
Creating micro-moments of pleasure throughout the day helps prevent end-of-day binges
Social media normalizes and even celebrates disordered relationships with both food and money
True healing often means rebelling against cultural norms and expectations
GUEST INFO
Leah Kern is an anti-diet dietician, certified intuitive eating counselor, and host of the "Shoulders Down" podcast. She helps people heal their relationship with food and body through intuitive eating principles and challenging diet culture.
⏰ EPISODE BREAKDOWN
[00:15:08] The binge-restrict cycle and how it applies to both money and food
[00:23:00] The "want beneath the want" - identifying deeper needs behind impulse spending
[00:42:16] Discussion about addiction - parallels and differences with food and money
[00:53:46] The impact of social media and "hauls" on our relationship with money
📚 Resources Mentioned
The Year of Less - Memoir about overcoming shopping addiction
Internal Family Systems (IFS) therapy approach
Burnout by Emily and Amelia Nagoski - Discussion of the stress cycle
💬 Join the Conversation
Send us your stories of consumer culture, diet culture, and budget culture showing up in ads, marketing or other messaging! We'll collect stories for an upcoming episode of the pod. Click on the big orange button on our site right from your phone or browser and leave a voicemail sharing your experience. https://www.moneyhealingclub.com/podcast
🎧 Your next listen:
S1 E10: ✍🏽 THE journal prompt for healing - Dear Money, what would you have me know?
💫 Use code PODCAST for 50% off your first month and start your money healing process!
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[00:00:00] - Music -
[00:00:03] Rachel: Welcome to the Money Healing Club podcast. I'm your host, Rachel Duncan. I'm a financial therapist and art therapist, and you've come to the softest place to land in personal finance. This podcast is for education and entertainment purposes only. For help with your particular situation, please seek help from a licensed professional in mental health, taxes, and finance.
[00:00:28] Here, we talk about all the things we don't usually say when we talk about money. Let's begin.
[00:00:34] ] - Music -
[00:00:36] Today I'm excited to share a special crossover episode for my friend Leah Kern's podcast called Shoulders Down. Leah is an anti-D diet dietician, certified intuitive eating counselor, and a fellow truth seeker with personal experience navigating disordered eating.
[00:00:54] In this conversation, Leah and I explore the fascinating parallels between budget, culture and diet culture, how they both use restriction. Shame and unrealistic standards that keep us in cycles of restriction and release.
[00:01:09] There are a lot of similarities in the way Leah and I approach our work in very different disciplines. And I think you'll like it too. By the way, the first part of this conversation is me talking about my journey to financial therapy. We get into the deeper conversation about budget culture and diet culture.
[00:01:26] About nine minutes in, if you already know my spiel and just wanna get to the goods,
[00:01:32] And here's a trigger warning. This episode includes discussions about binge eating and disordered eating patterns that may be sensitive for some listeners. We approach these topics with compassion and care, but please prioritize your wellbeing.
[00:01:46] I hope this conversation helps you see how similar our relationships with food and money can be, and offers some gentle paths towards healing Both. Enjoy this episode of Shoulders Down.
[00:01:58] Leah: /welcome to Shoulders Down, a podcast for truth seekers who want to heal their relationships with food and body. I'm your host Leah Kern, and I'm an anti-D diet dietician, certified intuitive eating counselor and fellow truth seeker with personal experience navigating disordered eating. In this podcast, you'll learn to harness your body's innate wisdom to govern not just how you eat, but also how you live.
[00:02:27] It's my mission to help you heal your relationship with food and body so you can live your most aligned and fulfilling life. Welcome, and I'm so glad that you're here.
[00:02:41] Welcome to the podcast, Rachel. So excited to have this juicy conversation with you. Yes, Leah, I'm so happy to be here. Thank you for inviting me. Of course. So I like to start every episode with hearing about your story. I'm so interested in other people's stories, just like in general, I'm curious and nosy.
[00:03:01] Um, and I also just find like so much healing in hearing other people's stories. So first if you could take us through a little bit about your story with your relationship with Food and Body, and then we'll get into more like the financial therapy piece as like a part two of that question. I love that.
[00:03:19] Rachel: Thank you. Yeah, I mean, I wanna say off the bat, like I'm very aware that I have this unearned privilege of being born into a white, thin able body that is the body I was born into and. I think a lot, a lot of my story is, you know, inhabiting that body, the male gaze, all of that stuff. Um, as well as my mother who had a very different body type and a very different relationship with money and was on constant diets and really kind of rejected her own body.
[00:03:49] And, um, what almost compare, she would compare us a lot. It wasn't, it was yucky. And I think, honestly I have a pretty good relationship with my body and food partially 'cause I was rebelling against her. Like she was kind of such a mess with diets and stuff. It was, I very much saw it play out. I was like, first of all, I think it's kind of destructive and also like, I'm not gonna be like my mother.
[00:04:12] So I think I've been kind of fortunate in like, learning this lesson the hard way. Um, so I've, you know, I really, I love food. I do, I really love delicious food and, um, I think the, and the older I get. The more in love with my body. I am, I'm, I'm the heaviest I've ever been. And I've never felt more grounded and good in my body.
[00:04:32] I've loved my forties. I'm 44 now. And, um, it's just really interesting. Each layer kind of like, I feel the strongest I've ever felt. You know, I've had two babies and I just, I actually feel like the strongest, most embodied I've ever felt. So that's, that's kind of, that's my relationship with body and food in a nutshell.
[00:04:52] Leah: It's so beautiful to hear you say that. 'cause I think so many people assume it's the opposite of like Yeah. As time goes on, you just hate yourself more and more until you die. And like, it's what has allowed you to, to feel more and more in love with your body and stronger with age. That's a good question.
[00:05:10] Rachel: I mean, I think it's my close friends that we're all aging together and you know, it's not like, it doesn't come with, its, you know, aches and pains and you can't recover from a few drinks. You can't recover from a few drinks like you used to. Like I rolled my foot the other day and it's taking forever to heal.
[00:05:26] So it's like, there are definite some things about aging you like, oh, I can't bounce back like I used to. Um, so I think seeing my friends age around me that we've been really close since our twenties, that's been just gorgeous. And seeing my friends get more and more beautiful and embodied as we all age has been amazing.
[00:05:43] Um, and I think just trying new things. Like I got into more strength training a couple years ago and that, that's been really personally gratifying. Mm-hmm. Um, feeling like, like I have a very strong body, you know, and knowing that like I'm protecting myself for the future, like, that's been a really great experience.
[00:06:01] I think being in a. I don't know. A, a healthy marriage, like a very accepting, intimate relationship has, um, also been huge for body acceptance. Mm-hmm. And honestly, aging outta the, the male gaze. It's the best thing that has ever happened to me, where that's just like not part of my life at all. You know, if anything, I dress for my girlfriends and for myself and, and that, and that shift happened, you know, while having kids and stuff.
[00:06:27] Um, so yeah, all of those things all together, I think. Mm-hmm. Hearing you say the line about watching your friends that you've known since your twenties, you know, grow old together and seeing them get more and more beautiful. Like, literally choked me up because, um, I'm in my twenties and it's like, uh, that's just seeing people you love go through life and like deepen your connection to them and your understanding of them and the layers to them as people at such a, like a, a wonderful way to think about beauty.
[00:07:00] Yeah. Oh it is. And like my friends, like, there's smile wrinkles and Oh, it's just, it's, it's wonderful. It's, I love that's, yeah. I'm seeing and I just think women are just so gorgeous as they age, you know? I love that like, permission to think of it like that, like you're saying it so casually, but I think for a lot of listeners it'll be like, whoa, that's an option.
[00:07:19] Leah: I'm seeing one of my best friends for dinner tonight and I'm definitely gonna tell her about that too. I love it. So the financial therapy piece of your story mm-hmm. What leads you to this work? What is financial therapy and what's your story through with your relationship with money? Hmm. It's been a windy road as it is for a lot of folks.
[00:07:40] Rachel: Um, so yes, we'll start with now. I am a financial therapist and a mental health counselor, uh, based in Denver. And, um, I'm also a trained art therapist. So up until about four years ago, I was working exclusively as an art therapist who secretly had a. Love of money. And during the pandemic, when I had to close my practice, of course, like so many folks, it was a deeply emotional and reflective time for me.
[00:08:05] Um, and learned about this very small but growing field of financial therapy, I felt like I was handed this permission slip to integrate these, um, passions of mine that had seemed like total different compartments. Like, oh, I like money and I like art and never the twain shall me. Um, and I love therapy and it is like, oh, I could actually pull this all together.
[00:08:25] And I got really excited. And so as I decided to reopen my business a few years ago and really saying I'm a financial therapist, everything has aligned. So, um, that's, that's what I'll say for today. But looking back, um, I always had a comfort with the topic of money that I don't really know where it came from.
[00:08:43] I just was always sort of interested. I loved counting my, literally counting my pennies and starting little businesses and, you know, my dad would have me help him with his taxes. Like my parents were, you know, involved me in stuff. And also we. Went through some very, very lean times and you know, my parents were very honest with me about what we could and couldn't afford.
[00:09:01] And so like, I think that openness really just taught me that like, this is grownup stuff. And I loved being a grownup and pretending to be a grownup. And then I always had sort of a knack for numbers and stuff like that. Even though I ended up studying like religion and the arts, I also had this very strong analytical side.
[00:09:19] Um, and I would say, like, looking back, I really, I do wish someone had said, well, you're really good at this. And, and I, I think people did and maybe I couldn't hear it 'cause I felt like it was so boring to like be good with money or be good with numbers. Um, and I, you know, I think I, if I had had some mentorship there, that would've been great.
[00:09:38] So I kind of went from admin job to admin job. Almost every job I had, I ended up working the books. 'cause I was like, yeah dude, that doesn't, it was never scary for me to like, get into accounting and like that just, it just seemed pretty inherent for me. Um, but then when I decided to become a therapist and it's just like a whole other thing, you know, I've been in therapy my life and um, you know, variety of anxiety and depression and all of that stuff, and I've decided to go that route.
[00:10:03] I, you know, just the money stuff was just like, well yeah, that's a skill of mine and that's fine. But there is this newer field of financial therapy. It really has, uh, maybe been around about 20 years. There is a financial therapy association, um, where there's training and membership and I'm part of that.
[00:10:18] And you know, it's this understanding that I think so many of us. Have where, oh, I didn't know financial therapy exists, but I completely kind of get it. Just putting those two words together, like Yeah, money is really emotional and we do need like, maybe some expert guidance in this, um, about the, the emotionality of it.
[00:10:37] So financial therapists could either come from the mental health side or from the financial side and they have some crossover training. Yeah. So that's, that's the field and it's, it's gonna go through a lot more changes, I think. But it is a, uh, small but mighty group of people. In, in your description of it, something in the way you just described, it reminded me of this, like brought up this parallel for me of the bulk of.
[00:11:02] Leah: Financial resources or like financial coaching that like, I feel like most people can say, oh yeah, I know about that, is like someone to teach you like budgeting or stocks or something like very like action oriented or like almost like tangible. And I think that's really how it used to be for a while with food of like, here's a meal plan, here's what to do, here's what to eat.
[00:11:23] And then there's this like other side of it, which is how do you relate to money? How do you relate to food? That's more of this upstream, deeper emotional way, entry point. And it's. Hugely important as you and I both know, but does that parallel ring true to you? Oh, it completely
[00:11:40] Rachel: does. You know, it's like, okay, are you gonna do an outside in approach or an inside out approach?
[00:11:45] Yes. And like the outside in approach is the one we might see on social media and stuff like, well just do these five steps, or, this worked for me, this should work for you. Or it's just this easy, which sounds so much more clean. Right. It sounds, oh, that's clear. Just tell me what to do when I think you and I have learned it in this process with both money and food.
[00:12:04] The inside out approach is more long lasting, it's more healing. It's a lot messier, it's a lot less clear. Mm-hmm. Um, but it's much more integrative. So, you know, I can understand the allure of the, like just do these things, but I know A, that doesn't work. Yeah. 'cause people come to me like, well, I've tried X, Y, and Z, I've done Dave Ramsey, and it doesn't work.
[00:12:29] And just like, just like budget, culture, just like the, oh, just plan your meals and blah, blah. Or just drink lemon water when you first wake up, it's like, okay, I've tried all the tips and tricks, something still, like I keep coming, coming back here, or I keep hitting rock bottom. And I was like, okay, it is not a tip and tips and tricks kind of solution.
[00:12:47] Leah: Right. I had a client say once, like, I've tried all the things and I just feel like something is deeply fucked up under the surface. And it was just a good way of wording it, of like, yeah, it's this like underlying. Belief system and core network that like has to do with what one, you know, childhood things.
[00:13:05] And it's so much deeper than just do these things. Anytime I hear the word just I'm like, ugh. Spidey sense is going off. Like this is about to be invalidating.
[00:13:15] Rachel: Yeah. And I hear a version of that sentence every day as well, you know, if I could just get my shit together, I'm always like, oh, okay, hang on.
[00:13:23] Mm-hmm. This isn't a case of just getting your shit together, you know? And if this were were easy, you would've done it and you wouldn't have needed me. Um, exactly. It's not, it's not easy. Um, and it's the, it's a sort of like repeated attempts to get better and um, like kind of internal frustration. I think probably both of our audiences have sometimes where it's like, oh, out there it looks so easy, or people make it look so easy and I'm not finding it easy.
[00:13:47] And I'm gonna say, well, those people are, there's a lot of this story you don't know. Yeah. And it's probably not, it's really not the whole story that you're seeing with these people who are making it look easy. Um, I always say like, I've looked under a lot of hoods and there there's, there's more components to the money than you are seeing that's making this, this image happen.
[00:14:05] Um, and probably the same with food.
[00:14:07] Leah: Absolutely. Absolutely. Okay. So you and I had a little connection call last week and we were kind of just shooting the shit about ways that we might have overlaps in our work. You know, you as a financial therapist and me as an intuitive eating dietician, you teach intuitive spending.
[00:14:29] I teach intuitive eating, and so there's lots of. Ways that our work might be similar, but also some ways where it might not be exactly apples to apples. And so the, the biggest one that kind of comes up is this binge restrict cycle. So with food, obviously diets lead to binging obsession. And with money, I imagine at some level of like, I either, like, I didn't have it when I was young and now I wanna buy all the things to, to feel accepted or fit in.
[00:14:57] Or like an in stable income where when it comes I wanna buy all the things, but then when it's not there, I have periods of restriction. How do you see this play out with money?
[00:15:08] Rachel: I mean, exactly what you said. I feel like you can use very similar language. You know, there, there's in the addiction type of cycle, you know, we see this binge restrict this sort of like attempts to get it together and then it falling apart and then attempts to get together and falling apart.
[00:15:23] Um. You know, I mean, I put relapse in air quotes, you know, 'cause it's like, I don't wanna equate all of this with like substance use 'cause it's not, um, but the sort of like, fuck it point that so many people have, like, I am tired of saying no to myself or like, ugh, I just want this kind of release. You know, I just wanna go for it.
[00:15:41] I just wanna spend that money or eat that thing. I'm sure. And I also wanna make sure I stay in my lane because, um, I don't do food and diet stuff like you do, but like, everyone kind of describes this the same way. I'm like, ah, it's just, fuck it, I've been holding back so long and this could happen on a weekly basis.
[00:15:57] Right? I, I see these cycles happen. Kind of a shorter timeframe, really. Monthly, weekly, something like that. And then there's a stage of kind of feeling hopeless, right? Like, ugh, I just went to Target and like there goes $300 or whatever it is. I'm feeling like, ugh, I've tried so many times, I'll never get better at this.
[00:16:12] And then kind of, we call it the awareness of the problem, which is the next stage. Um, which is like, gosh, you know, maybe I do kind of have a problem here. Or hearing it reflected in something else. And then, then maybe wanting to take action like, oh, maybe there is like a book I could pick up. Or like, there's gotta be a better way where you're kind of getting a little more ready to take some action and then there's taking action, which is definitely the point where I meet people, and maybe for you too, where like, okay, I got, there's gotta be a better way.
[00:16:39] I'm gonna take action. I'm gonna commit to something, join a gym, join a program, read a book. You know, hire a coach. And I was like, oh, I'm learning all these things. This is great. And I'm kind of like maintaining, you would call it the maintenance phase, you know, or, or where you're maintaining. It's like, oh, you're seeing all this cool new stuff happen, or new habits.
[00:16:59] But along with that, maintenance comes an aspect of restriction. Like, oh, I'm doing these new things. I'm not doing these other things. I'm having this sort of hyper awareness. When we're in that learning period, it's exciting. It's also taking a ton of energy and then find that still I am exhausted and having that fucking moment again.
[00:17:18] So it is a cycle. And I really normalize that cycle. And what I try to teach people is that when we're aware of the, the restriction cycle happens, right? Like growth isn't linear.
[00:17:29] Speaker 8: Mm-hmm.
[00:17:29] Rachel: So you will struggle again. And I really tell people that like, you'll struggle again. You'll have a fucking moment again.
[00:17:35] And I want us to prepare for that. And when we prepare for that and know that it is all part of the learning process, this model is called stages of change. Each point in this cycle is a stage of change. And if you're aware, oh, that just happened. Mm-hmm. She'd be like, oh yeah, I have been trying to hold it together.
[00:17:53] And of course I got that, like that Fuck it moment. Throw it all to the wind. Oh, of course. And when you have an awareness of that, instead of beating yourself up about it, then you learn from each cycle. Right? Right. Then you go along and like your next fuck it moment is maybe a hundred dollars at Target, not three.
[00:18:11] Right. And like that's all growth where it's like, oh, oh, I stopped myself.
[00:18:15] Leah: Yes.
[00:18:15] Rachel: Oh, I.
[00:18:16] Leah: I always like to say like, with food, healing your relationship with food doesn't mean that you never eat past comfortable fullness, but it's that the magnitude and the frequency of those episodes goes down.
[00:18:28] Rachel: Yes, that's exactly it.
[00:18:29] And that's, that's what I try to normalize with, you know, with my audience as well. And I think that really works. We're like, yeah, oh, I had to get bailed out by my parents again for $500. Well, last year it was 5,000. Hey, that's huge. Right? This is huge progress. And instead of treating yourself with shame, to really feel that compassion like I am learning, this is a tough thing to learn, right?
[00:18:51] I think with both food and money, these are like high reward experiences we have on literally on the daily, like we're interacting with food and money hourly. Um, so like you have a lifetime of habits that you are, you know, examining or trying to change and it's, it's going, it's just not gonna be like, oh, that one tip and trick is just not gonna do it.
[00:19:14] It's gonna be a messier process.
[00:19:16] Leah: Right, right. So it's a cycle and it gets better with time, but it's not this like perfection and like it's immediately, you know, snap your fingers, poof, this isn't an issue anymore. So with the, the binge restrict kind of comparison with money and food, I listened to this podcast episode a little while back on Virginia Soul Smith's podcast, which, uh, it was titled Is Budgeting A Diet.
[00:19:42] And I'm curious your thoughts on that, because we know that restriction leads to the fuck it binge moment. So when it comes to money, what do you think about that?
[00:19:52] Rachel: I, I mean, I think there's so many roots that, that are similar. It's also very rooted in white patriarchy and very much like, you know, these, these white guys in position of privilege and power, you know, can, you know, they maintain a diet and flaunt it, they're good with their money, quote unquote, and flaunt it.
[00:20:08] And so. There's this sort of implicit standard that's very much centered on white maleness that I think a lot of us are really trying to undo. And I think a lot of us in, they're seeing the diet culture, seeing the budget culture. Wow. It's, it, the language is so similar, right? It's this like, like the words we have around willpower and the words we have are around mindfulness.
[00:20:30] And, and I think 'cause it's like, oh, we'll just do this plan. And it's about restriction and it's about, um, discipline, right? All of these words are, are ones that, like, if I think about the way I learn or the way I have changed things, it's never really been through the words like discipline and restriction that has never really taught me much.
[00:20:48] It's maybe been a thing I've tried out, but like I don't, that hasn't caused any meaningful change. What's caused meaningful change for you and me? I like intimate relationships. Yeah. Self-compassion. Oh, self-compassion. Yeah, yeah,
[00:20:59] Leah: yeah. Shame is not a motivator. And, and what we were talking about before, those cycles, it's like if you have the impulse spend at Target and after you are like, what's wrong with you?
[00:21:09] You're such an idiot. Or in my work, it's like if you have a binge and same language, what's wrong with you? You're such an idiot. I can't believe you did this again. Yeah. That makes you wanna shove the experience under the rug and not look at it 'cause it's so shameful. And then you can't learn and grow from it versus, Ooh, that didn't feel great, that wasn't aligned with our values, or, Hmm, our body doesn't feel so good right now.
[00:21:28] Okay. Like that happened. Noted. Then you're actually able to store it and the next time you're able to draw on it and pull that file and be like, what happened last time? How did this feel? Yeah. Versus a shame filled experience, like I think of that movie Inside Out. Have you seen it?
[00:21:43] Rachel: Oh yeah.
[00:21:44] Leah: Okay. And like when, when like sadness touches the memory, it gets turned.
[00:21:48] Blue or whatever. And it's like when shame touches the memory, it's like change to color. We don't wanna like interact with it 'cause it's so painful.
[00:21:56] Rachel: Yeah. And then we, if we reflect on that episode with compassion and maybe, and also not alone, I think that's another aspect where like both of these fields really benefit from having like compassionate relationships where like, okay, then it's coming up again.
[00:22:11] Or the target moment and, and you kind of watch yourself where you feel it build up like, oh, here it comes, you know? And it's like, oh, that's so great. When I hear someone say, oh, I kind of felt that happening or like, I almost watched myself do this thing. It's like, okay, now we're having an internal dialogue.
[00:22:26] Where instead of Yeah, shoving it under the rug, I'm gonna work with this very human experience and like, how could I work with myself in this moment? Oh gosh, am I just like really needing, am I needing some love right now? Or did I really have a shit week and I need some soothing? Is that really what's going on?
[00:22:42] Um, instead of like, I'm a garbage person. Right. You're absolutely not. And I think, yeah, when we, when a lot of folks wanna change these habits, like, oh, well, just never again. We're just never gonna do that. And I'm like, no, that's all or nothing mentality. Yes. The all or nothing stuff, it's so destructive and it just doesn't allow room
[00:22:59] Leah: for
[00:23:00] Rachel: learning.
[00:23:01] Leah: So you talk about in your work, this want beneath the want. Is that the wording you used? Yeah, that's it. Yeah. And, and I, I see that as such a parallel with, with food too, of like. You know, going to food to try to actually solve another unmet need or core desire that's happening under the surface. And the parallel being, you know, going to target to try to get something that isn't actually the items that you can find there, but it's a feeling or an emotional need.
[00:23:27] How do you walk folks through this when, you know, they start realizing, oh, target actually fills my need for novelty or a release, or I don't know, just reprieve from life once they notice what they're actually needing, what, what are kind of the next steps in that process?
[00:23:43] Rachel: Yeah, I think it's often like listing those things out.
[00:23:46] Like, what if I am pursuing beauty? That thing is beautiful. I love beauty. Uh, a lot of the folks who come to me who like identify as impulse vendors, you know, have a great taste and I really like to normalize that. Like, you love beauty, you love, maybe you love beautiful things around your house. And that really reframes it of like, oh, stop buying, you know, throw pillows.
[00:24:05] It's like you, you love beauty in your house. And so, you know, finding these like deeper. Themes of identity and values. Yeah. It's often beauty, um, connection with others, right? Like buying that concert ticket that you truly can't afford, but to be part of something so often like that, the social stuff where it's like, you know, did you want the concert or did you wanna have a high key experience with your friends?
[00:24:30] Speaker 8: Mm. Right.
[00:24:32] Rachel: And so, yes, you could buy a ticket for that or you could host a potluck. Like it's, it's an option to meet that need. Right? Creativity, identity, you know, self-development. I hear a lot like, oh, I bought all these, you know, self-paced courses I've never finished. Well, what the wamp beneath the want is, you don't really wanna change some things in your life.
[00:24:51] That's a wonderful value and a, and an existential theme to follow. So once we identify that core theme, it's like, okay, or let's brainstorm all the, all the ways you can meet that need with shopping being one of them. One of that, one of them of a kind of a menu. Right. I've. Talk with someone who like felt themselves going to like their, their usual kind of impulse spend and identified the want beneath the want, that it was being part of things and joined like a hobbyist group instead.
[00:25:21] Right? What a cool way to follow that impulse. Not deny, not restrict, but go towards what really we're wanting is some identity and connection.
[00:25:29] Leah: Absolutely. Yeah. This is really so aligned with the way that I talk about the emotional eating piece of like, okay, it's, you know, often emotional eating happens at night, so it's like, okay, mm-hmm.
[00:25:39] What happened in your day? What were you just needing the food to, to give you in this day? Was it connection? Was it was comfort? Was it a release? And I love what that you used the word menu. 'cause I say the exact same thing with, with my clients of like, yeah, food is one of those things. Like it really can give you some of those things.
[00:25:56] Connection. Like it can bring us some memories of childhood, or our loved ones cooking for us, or whatever it is, and it can give us a release or distraction, whatever. And there are so many other things that aren't food and aren't gonna leave you feeling physically sick that can give us those things, you know?
[00:26:12] Yeah. Whether it's. Calling a friend or watching a documentary if you're looking for intellectual stimulation or, you know, whatever the, the many things that could be on someone's menu are, and I think even just that language helps people see of like, oh, I'm not crazy. Like I'm, I'm drawn to this for a reason.
[00:26:28] And it's so human to want to use food or shopping to fill that deeper desire. It's
[00:26:36] Rachel: deeply human. Oh, nighttime, I'm with you. It's. One, one client or a, a member of, of the Money Healing Club, uh, my support group said, oh 8:00 AM me makes very different decisions than 6:00 PM me. And sometimes you'd be like, oh, I'm a crazy person because I'm all these different people in a day.
[00:26:54] And I was like, first off, we all are. But when we're exhausted, at the end of the day with modern life and all of its demand, sometimes you need a win.
[00:27:00] Speaker 8: Yes.
[00:27:01] Rachel: And it's like, okay, I don't have maybe a win or I'm feeling ineffective or, or, you know, X, y and Z stressors happen, but if I put $10 in this thing, I know I'll get this thing or experience back.
[00:27:12] That's sort of like a level of certainty that we don't get in a lot of aspects of our lives. So I really could understand. It's like if I'm feeling ineffective in my life, I could be effective in that thing. And in that moment, the logic is so clear, right? Yes. The logic is so clear. I mean, I've definitely had days where like that latte or that milkshake saved my day.
[00:27:30] As I needed to feel effective in that moment. I needed someone else to do something for me and I needed someone to make me that ice cream or whatever. And I'm okay with that, but also like knowing I'm just, I'm needing a win right now.
[00:27:42] Leah: Right,
[00:27:43] Rachel: okay. It's a good moment to pause.
[00:27:45] Leah: And there's even the part of this, that's the known outcome of when I buy a milkshake, it's consistent, it tastes delicious.
[00:27:51] I feel certain happy emotions. And with my clients, I see, you know, I know I'm about to binge, but when I binge, I can consistently predict the outcome. And even though it's not a pleasant outcome, it's known. And the comfort of the reliable Yes. Can be soothing, even if it's like not actually. Supportive.
[00:28:12] Rachel: Right. And in the moment the logic is so clear and it's often when, you know, I talk a lot about just nervous system regulation and how often are we experiencing pleasure in all of its forms, you know, kind of building up the padding, you know, throughout the day. Because let's face it, yeah, like we're facing a lot of stressors, you know, from a micro level to a macro level, and it's gonna wear you down throughout the day.
[00:28:33] So it's like, okay, let's look at the protective aspects of our lives. So I have my clients do like a pleasure practice. They come up with just a little mini, like, just a little experience that's pleasant. And try to do that same thing every day for a while. And if you get tired of it, switch it. Right. Um, but to kind of remind yourself of, of the work you're doing and that you're in your body and you're in your place.
[00:28:53] And if you're in a safe place to remind yourself you're in a safe place and this little thing, and we're not talking. You know, weekend warrior stuff, we're not talking about like doing the whole yoga glass or like, you know, we're talking this little like, you're gonna close your eyes when you sip your tea in the morning.
[00:29:07] That's it, right? Or you're going to do a little essential oil, or you're gonna do a little bit of light stretching, or you're gonna call a friend or you know, one of these things, we all know it's all usually aligned with good self care practices, but for to be a little micro moment, um, and finding that like, oh, when I'm doing that check-in with myself and I'm feeling some pleasure, then it's like, I can deliver that want.
[00:29:29] I don't need that throw pillow to deliver the want anymore. It doesn't do it for me in the same way. And this is also how, this is the long and winding road, because I would say it generally takes about six months in my work. I don't know about for you where like. Oh, I generally didn't. I, I, I genuinely didn't even want that like I used to.
[00:29:51] I genuinely could like, walk past that shop and just be like, not today, no problem.
[00:29:56] Speaker 8: Yeah. It
[00:29:56] Rachel: takes a while. And I do, I let people know like, this is the long game and it takes a while, but it does happen with this like, with the intention and checking in and maybe being part of relationships that are really healing about it, where it's, it's not about restriction anymore.
[00:30:09] Like, I truly don't want that. Like I know that I want my money to go towards this. Right. And that feels good for me.
[00:30:14] Leah: And it's a difference between walking past that store and like, I'm not allowed to go there. Right. Versus a genuine, like, inside feeling of like, I feel content. I don't need the hit of dopamine from this throw pill or whatever.
[00:30:27] What you said about like infusing pleasure throughout the day is I just love that so much and I, what comes up for me, I, I love to listen to a podcast or watch a YouTube video while I eat. Um, because it's like. I work from home alone and I'm spending, like eating like a lot of meals alone and having someone, a voice or like watching something while I'm eating feels so lovely to me, and it also helps me to really not like work.
[00:30:54] I'm like, oh, I'm, I'm switching from work to Joy during this meal, and, and again, I, I just see such a parallel with my clients. It's like if they're eating the, the diet food all throughout the day denying themself, oh, they, you know, the, the sandwich came with a salad or fries and they chose the salad 'cause they felt like they had to, and you know, that's one deprivation block and then another deprivation block of like, you know, they really wanted a sweet after their lunch, but they said, no, that's not allowed.
[00:31:21] And then it's like at night the whole like, tower of blocks comes tumbling down versus if your day was infused with like micro moments of satisfaction and pleasure, it wouldn't all be riding in this like, one nighttime snack that turns into a binge. Mm-hmm. So I, I really love that idea of intentionally infusing pleasure throughout the day versus having like, sort of like a lackluster.
[00:31:46] Day to day, and then relying on these more like concentrated hits of dopamine,
[00:31:51] Rachel: right? When, when you're, you're all out, like you're all out of willpower or whatever, you know, your tank is just sort of empty. And, you know, I'm, I think in both of our fields, it's like, oh, then, you know, we're doom scrolling and I don't know, like food and money are major in the influencer world.
[00:32:07] Like everyone's got their opinions, everyone's showing it off. And you know, if, and if you're at kind of a low point and you're not feeling great, then like we're just bombarded with those asks and those advertisements and the one pill or the one budget sheet. And, um, yeah. And so, so much of our work is like, let's, let's really look at your social media experience and consumption.
[00:32:33] And so many, so many people in the club are just like getting, getting Instagram off their phones. It's like, I just can't, like, yeah. It's just too much.
[00:32:42] Leah: I, I wanna talk about this piece of. Parallel between sort of getting your shit together with food and getting your shit together with money and of how it, the, the sort of cultural narrative is placing the responsibility on the individual of like, it's your fault versus looking at the, the systems.
[00:33:02] So how does this show up with money, culture and, and personal finance culture? How do you see this in your work?
[00:33:09] Rachel: Oh gosh, it's so huge. I, my, my therapy training was in social justice, and so like I'm trained to take everything as like a multicultural intersectional lens. So it's like, okay, where's my client at in terms of age, demographic, you know, race, ethnicity, gender, like all religion, all of these like intersectional experiences.
[00:33:30] And of course, like we all have our individual experiences and all of that. And then also looking at the systemic factors. So, you know, I do primarily work with women, not exclusively, but primarily with women. And so there's this very gendered aspect of how women. Generally are engendered to relate to money, to like, be very appreciative of everything they get to avoid conflict to, um, which is a self-preservation thing from multi-generational trauma, which of course is another theme of multi-generational trauma, especially related to money.
[00:34:02] I, you know, money often equals survival equals safety and has for our ancestors, even just a couple generations back, I say ancestors, it, it could just be your parents grandparents where, you know, it's the money under the mattress that saved the family, right? Like, so the very intense ties to, to our identities that relates to the greater world.
[00:34:25] And then of course, depending on what country you live in, the systems you're dealing with, from taxation to laws, to welfare, to, you know, all of these systems, um, intersecting and the experience of poverty being traumatic. So. There, there, there's just so much there where it's like, it is you and it's so much more than you.
[00:34:45] Right? And it's like, we've got these systemic problems, but oh no, you need to pull yourself up from your bootstraps. Is, is, or, you know, I hate these, there's this thing going around of like the 50, 30, 20 rule, and it only works if you're earning six figures.
[00:34:59] Speaker 8: So like,
[00:34:59] Rachel: oh, well I should be saving, you know, 20% of my income.
[00:35:02] Well, what are you earning $30,000 a year? I don that that breakdown doesn't work if you're lower income. And for these influencers to say that it should, they're completely misguided and, and coming from a really privileged place. So I don't apply any rules like that. That just doesn't make any sense. So that's, I mean, it's like such a complicated thing to even start, but I'm always, I'm looking at all of these intersectionalities, I'm asking my clients how they identify with all this, what they know about their family.
[00:35:30] 'cause all of this is, is playing out and you know, like for example, like chronic health conditions, it's like, okay, well for someone with a chronic health condition, getting a massage is not a luxury, it's an absolute necessity. Right? So this is like, oh look, oh, you need to know your wants versus needs. You will not hear me say that
[00:35:47] Speaker 8: because
[00:35:48] Rachel: a want will feel like a need given a, you know, a certain individual's experience and vice versa, right?
[00:35:54] Like, that's not a helpful, that's again this whole restriction thing where like, given where you're at, this might really be the thing, right? Like getting that new tv, you know, so that your children can be home safe. Like that's absolutely a need, not a want. So I'm always like looking at, I also, people generally know what they should do with their money.
[00:36:17] Hmm. It's like, this isn't news. Right. Earn more, spend less, save the difference. Yeah, that's right. That's, it's like the knowledge gap. It's no, yeah. They're general and, and this whole thing like, oh, financial literacy needs to improve. Financial literacy has like done the best it can. Mm-hmm. And like, it's not, I mean, yes, there might be a few little gaps, but that's not really, that's not really it.
[00:36:36] It's this conversation about consumerism and reward cycle and keeping up with the Joneses. Like it, it's all of these social pressures that are really the problem, not financial literacy.
[00:36:48] Leah: I think, I think about that with nutrition too. It's like, okay, we can learn all the facts of like, what's a carb protein, fat fiber.
[00:36:53] But like, that doesn't change the emotional relationship to food. And it doesn't even touch it really. And the piece about, well just pull yourself up by the bootstraps and figure it out. Like have discipline. That kind of like voice that feels so, like patriarchy, like just shameful is so prevalent in, in, you know, the, the diet world too, of like, oh, the diet didn't work well, it's your fault.
[00:37:19] Yeah. Figure it out. And it doesn't look at any of the factors. I mean, one diets are literally made to fail. Our budgets. Our budgets. Yeah. So can you say more about that? Yeah,
[00:37:29] Rachel: I mean it's, you know, I'm not necessarily pro or anti budgett. I say it is a tool. It's a tool. If it works for you, great. We're gonna find the tools that work for you.
[00:37:37] Some people like really work well in the budget. Great. It, it's more, it's such a small part of the work. Um, there is like, with money, certainly like being aware of like, what are your monthly obligations? What are your yearly obligations? A lot of people like don't think about that. Like, oh, I blew my budget.
[00:37:55] Well, what, you know, what do you think happened? Like, oh, well my, my dog had to have emergency surgery. Well, yeah, so if you have a pet, we do need to like allow money for that. 'cause that is gonna happen every month. It's like there are gonna be. Things that happen in a cycle that um, you can't quite anticipate.
[00:38:12] But if you were to really back up and look at your life, like pets are a big one.
[00:38:16] Speaker 8: Yeah. If you
[00:38:16] Rachel: have pets, you really need to satisfy good, a good chunk of money for that. I think pet owners would understand that. And 'cause you never know when that's gonna happen and that's gonna be an emotional expense. So
[00:38:25] Speaker 8: yeah, like
[00:38:25] Rachel: I definitely have a lot of, pretty realistic, let's look at a spreadsheet, let's look at your bank account, you know, just to help sometimes get a really clear picture.
[00:38:33] So often it comes down to this is not a spending thing, this is an income story.
[00:38:39] Speaker 8: We
[00:38:39] Rachel: all know that cost of living has just like increased so much in the last four years. Generally our wages have not. And so it's often like, you know what? Like, sure, maybe there are a few things you could cut out, a few subscriptions you can cancel, great.
[00:38:51] Do it. But if there aren't major lifestyle changes that you want to make or like at hand, let's, you gotta pursue income. And so that's often part of the story where like that gets left out. 'cause we talk about spending so much when we have three other parts of the story, which are income, debt and um, and savings and, and investing.
[00:39:16] So it's like spending is like the loudest. It's like the stuff we see, we see people go on vacations, we see people wear these clothes and, and all this stuff. But like there's these three other components that we just don't see. And that then sometimes we're not even focusing on. And I've had such healing conversations with people that like, oh, I thought I was shit with money.
[00:39:34] I just don't earn enough. Mm. Oh my God. And that is often just not communicated, but like, oh, the 50, 30, 20 rule, like doesn't take into account. Yeah. Not if you're making minimum wage. Um, so those are sometimes like the real normalizing thing where also like my feminist perspective is like. We gotta get you more money.
[00:39:55] And I will do everything I love reviewing a resume, looking at jobs, you know, not a huge fan of like side hustles 'cause we get burned out, but like that, like keep everything as it is and pursue income. So, sorry, this is like a long-winded story. Like that's, that's the usefulness of a budget is like, where are your money obligations going?
[00:40:13] You know, often people are like, where's all my money going? It's like, well let's find out there it is just actual data.
[00:40:18] Speaker 8: Mm-hmm.
[00:40:19] Rachel: We can find that out. Um, also, are we accounting for all the incidentals, all the things throughout a year, you know, breaks on a car, you know, stuff like that. And then we get to a number of like, what is your living wage?
[00:40:34] Does your income meet that or not? And so then it's like, oh, those are the levers we can, we can play with. Um, and yeah, it's a, it's a process. It is just a process and, but the more we can have those like loving conversations. I'm wondering for you, Leah, you know, you're talking to people of like, well, do you wanna talk about what you ate today?
[00:40:51] Like, you know, sometimes, yeah. This is the first time I've told somebody about what's really going on. And just that process of sharing, like this is really like, oh, I'm, I'm sending, you know, money to my. Niece every month. Oh, I've never told anybody that. You know, it's just like these examples of like sometimes this shame filled stuff that's been under the rug.
[00:41:10] It's like, what does your money life really look like? And talking with someone who's gonna love and accept you for it. That's the work, right? Like I don't care so much about the spreadsheet, but that really is the work.
[00:41:20] Leah: Oh my gosh, so much healing just happens in this space where you're sharing this part of yourself that like not many people are asking you.
[00:41:27] Who in your daily life is like, how's your relationship with money? Like, how's that going? How's your relationship with food? There's like healing. I wish it was being heard. Yeah, yeah.
[00:41:36] Rachel: It really, it really is. And it's the thing like, oh, I don't feel like I can share. I'm gonna be judged. Or I just bought that thing I really couldn't afford, or I have this debt, I, I wish, I really wish it was like my mission to just normalize these
[00:41:48] Leah: experiences.
[00:41:48] Right. Well then it goes back to like, of course you bought that thing you couldn't afford. Like again, what did you, what was the want beyond the want? What did you need? And I think about that with food too. Like I always say to my clients, like, your body's trying to protect you. Like often my clients have been through decades of dieting and it's like, of course you want the high sugary, high fat, calorically dense things because your body is literally worried that another diet slash period of starvation is around the corner.
[00:42:12] So it's like, all of this makes sense. We adapt these ways for a reason and our, our bodies and brains like aren't betraying us. We just have to like understand them to work with them.
[00:42:21] Rachel: Yeah. So, so true. And you know, it is interesting. I mean, do you wanna shift into the conversation about addiction because Yes, I do wanna that, which I think is like so juicy.
[00:42:31] Leah: Yes. Okay. So. Intuitive spending and intuitive eating. There's a lot of parallels which are like, I don't even think we like covered every single one and like more, were coming up as we were talking. Mm-hmm. But maybe we'll have to have a part two of this episode, but one that might actually not be an apples to apples parallel is this idea of food addiction versus shopping addiction or money addiction spending addiction.
[00:42:53] Mm-hmm. Folks who listen to this podcast know that I, I'm firm in my stance that food addiction isn't a thing. Sugar addiction isn't a thing. I'll link to a whole episode on that, but I'll speak on it briefly. Um, as it relates to our conversation, and you've shared that you, you, you do think that shopping.
[00:43:11] Slash spending addiction is real. Mm-hmm. Tell us more about that. Yeah.
[00:43:16] Rachel: Yes. Well, so yeah, so I will say this was actually such a good, I'm so glad you brought it up because, um, it caused me to kind of like, you know, do a little more research and in the literature, so it's, it shopping addiction is not a diagnosis, but it's considered, it, it, you can, it can be included in like the mental health world as, um, kind of a behavioral impulse.
[00:43:36] It's more of an impulse control disorder right now, um, kind of in a, in a catchall. So it has not been defined and there's definitely talk of it becoming defined. And there is this debate. Is it an impulse control disorder or an addiction? I see both depending on the person. Um, the reason I really try to normalize that one can be addicted to spending is because it meets the criteria.
[00:44:03] As well as so many of my clients are actively sober from alcohol and drugs. Hmm.
[00:44:08] Speaker 8: So
[00:44:09] Rachel: like, and when I use this lingo, they're like, yeah, that hits. So just anecdotally, granted, this is not like research based, but just anecdotally from my work, when I use an addiction model, when we talk about their relationship with substance previously, like, oh, that kind of just transferred over to money.
[00:44:24] I get the same. It's a very similar experience. So, and it could be 'cause I attract folks who have like addictive tendencies, then it's like, okay, this is all working here. Granted, like, not everyone with impulse control has addiction right there. There's a continuum here. Um, however, the longer someone has impulse control problems, the more likely it's going to develop into an addiction.
[00:44:46] And so, like, some of like the defining characteristics of any addiction are having very few limits of, um, exceeding what you intended. Being pretty consistent about that use, um, forgetfulness, a lot of energy, pursuing and concealing the thing, feeling powerless and it affecting relationships.
[00:45:06] Speaker 8: Mm-hmm.
[00:45:07] Rachel: So when we see, you know, a good number of those lines being checked.
[00:45:11] It's like, okay, this is maybe not problem behavior, this is addictive behavior. And you know where that line gets crossed, who knows?
[00:45:19] Speaker 8: Yeah. But
[00:45:19] Rachel: all I know is when I normalize that, that's really, really helpful for my clients and I know I'm onto something. Yeah. Um, and there's definitely talk about in the next iteration of the diagnostic statistical manual, there being more, it being a little more light laid out.
[00:45:34] However, right now, you know, gambling addiction is defined as well as, um, hoarding disorder often has like a real financial component, but not every person who, you know, has a, spending addiction is a hoarder. So I wouldn't say that's, it's just like an aspect of that behavior. Um, but I think, I think we're gonna see as mental health research goes along and the DSM keeps getting revised, I think it's gonna get more identified.
[00:45:57] So that's kind of my spiel on it.
[00:45:59] Leah: It's interesting 'cause when you say, when you list out the pieces of like forgetfulness, like secrecy and shame, like hiding it, what were some of the other ones?
[00:46:07] Rachel: Um, constant pursuit affecting relationships and feeling powerless.
[00:46:11] Leah: I mean, check, check, check, check, check. In terms of people's relationship with food.
[00:46:16] Speaker 8: Yeah.
[00:46:16] Leah: The difference is, and I, I wonder your thoughts on this. Like we, 'cause I wanna say we need food to live, right? That's like not up for debate, but do we need like. Shopping, spending to live like, yes, it's like a modern, but we need money. We
[00:46:35] Rachel: need money. So it's like, yeah. And you know, and I think you had brought up in another, uh, one of your interviews I listened to, it's like, well, it's not really the food, it's the restriction.
[00:46:44] I was like, that's a really good point. It's like, it's not the money, it's the restriction. And that's given me a lot of food, food for thought thinking about this work. It's like, yeah, it's not money, it's the restriction.
[00:46:55] Leah: Right. So this is, I'll put the link to that episode 'cause I know the one that you listen to in the show notes.
[00:47:00] But just to say it here briefly, there's really interesting research. So I, all the time I have a client send me, you know, well, Leah, what about this? Like, how can we do intuitive eating if the food is engineered to be addictive? And it's like a study. There's this one that always goes around where, you know, it's like Oreos as addictive as cocaine.
[00:47:18] That's the flashy heading. But if you really look into the research, they're, you know, they give some like lab rats. Um, there's two groups. One has unlimited access to like a sugar water substance and the other has intermittent access. Where it's there, it's taken away, it's there, it's taken away. And only the group that had the intermittent access showed the addiction like behaviors.
[00:47:42] Whereas the one with consistent access didn't. But then the headline gets blown up about the one with the intermittent access, which really mirrors restriction of like, oh, is restriction around the corner? Do I need to gorge on this now because it's gonna be taken away. That shows us it's not the sugar in and of itself, it's the context of restriction or intermittent access.
[00:48:02] I wonder what you think about that relating to money.
[00:48:06] Rachel: I think it definitely does. You know, there's this phenomenon that I've seen that I would love to be part of, research to see of for so many folks, this discomfort with money sitting in the account. Almost really this impulsive, compulsive reaction.
[00:48:20] Like, it's gotta go,
[00:48:21] Speaker 8: whoa, I gotta
[00:48:22] Rachel: spend it. You know? And that, I think there's a lot there, and it could be different for every person, but there's a, and I think you're right, it has something to do with this rise and fall of, and I, I've unpacked this in some group stuff too. Like I've just put it out there, you guys, what are thinks going on there, right?
[00:48:38] And folks really saying, okay, one thing, like, I'll be judged if I misuse this money. So, but like, if I spend it on this thing, this dress, this trip, that makes sense. 'cause it's concrete. If I keep it, what if I, what if I try to invest it and I mess up? Like rather the sure thing, like, like we said before, like the reliable thing is to buy something with it.
[00:48:59] The, the, the thing I'm not sure about is like investing and saving it. So it's kind of like the, the devil, you know. And then it's also like, I don't even know what that means to me to have money sitting in my account to roll over to the next month. Like that's sort of like, it's so like not what I'm used to, not part of my identity, and that like, oh, then that means maybe I'm not meeting a need.
[00:49:19] Mm. So it, it, it is, and I, so I think you're really right that it has, like if I have lived with restriction before and I'm at the end of the month and I happen to have money left over, then it's like uhoh. Well, what if that, what if, what if life gets hard again? Right. Or like, I rather stuck up the pantry or something.
[00:49:37] Yeah. Right. Or
[00:49:38] Leah: like, I try another kick where I'm budgeting really strictly and like, I'm not allowed to spend this, so should I just fuck it right now before I start a clean slate next month?
[00:49:46] Rachel: Yeah. It's, it's really interesting. Especially as like payroll cycles.
[00:49:50] Leah: Yeah. You know,
[00:49:51] Rachel: receiving money, spending money, and it's these weird like cycles that we're part of and if we're rewrite, you know, if it's like, oh, well, and it's also just a habit if I'm used to always spending my money that I don't even know what does that mean to have this thing sitting at, at the end.
[00:50:03] So, yeah, I think you're right to the backup. It's like, it's not money, it's this. This rollercoaster of relating with it and this inflow, outflow, and you know, like food, like we're relating to this so often to meet our needs. Right? Right. It's inherent right now. Money is the way we meet our needs. It just is.
[00:50:21] Right. So it's, it's neutral. Money is neutral. It's, but it will highlight unfinished business.
[00:50:30] Leah: Right. That we
[00:50:31] Rachel: need to need to work with.
[00:50:32] Leah: Mm. It's so interesting. And another piece of the addiction conversation is like often in these articles, the, the thing that gets pulled outta the research is the same brain regions light up when consuming sugar as, you know, the same regions that light up when having cocaine.
[00:50:48] And it's like, yeah, well both those things deliver pleasure. So like that in and of itself, it's like, yeah, that was brain regions light up when you're having sex or, you know, listening to music or doing anything that brings you pleasure, but that doesn't gambling. Yeah. So it doesn't automatically equal addiction, but sometimes it does.
[00:51:04] Those brain regions can light up when you're engaging in addictive behaviors too. Are, are you familiar with the book Burnout? No.
[00:51:12] Rachel: That came out a few years ago by Emily Naski. They talk about, oh, I know Emily Naski, but I'm not familiar with that. It's, you know, it's quite good. It's, it's about the stress cycle.
[00:51:19] Like, okay, we can't avoid stress. Stress is gonna happen. This is evolution, but what. Human beings probably used to have much more of is a completion of the stress cycle. Yes. And so spending, and I'm wondering what you think about about food, it's a false completion of the stress cycle.
[00:51:39] Leah: Yeah. Right. Whereas, yeah, I just having one of those moments where I can't remember where I just talk to someone about the stress cycle.
[00:51:47] Um, I think it was an interview on this pod, uh, um, with Hannah husband who talks about movement and how exercise is a way of completing the stress cycle. Yes. 'cause you're like getting, moving that energy through and Yeah. I think food very well could be, even if it's just that the binge makes you really, really stressed and anxious, but at least you kind of got that out.
[00:52:10] Whereas there's like other quote unquote, like healthy stressors, meaning just like ways that feel more supportive to to mm-hmm. To feel those emotions, like, um, movement or like venting to a friend or to like work through the, the, the cycle. So yeah, I think that's an interesting point. There's definitely something
[00:52:26] Rachel: there.
[00:52:27] It's like I, you know, the click, the adding to cart, the dopamine hit is definitely there. And like I try to reframe dopamine, just like you do with the sugar stuff is like dopamine's, just like supernatural. Like it's just like, I know don't be supernatural. It is a natural aspect of us getting our needs met, of the satisfaction of acquiring the destination, of us acquiring the hunt or whatever.
[00:52:46] Like it's, we wouldn't survive as a species without dopamine. And you know, those folks with, you know, with A DHD are deficient in it. And so they're gonna seek that dopamine behavior more. But we all have dopamine. Like this is not just an DHD thing. And so. I try to try to normalize. Yeah. That dopamine seeking is very natural and yeah, again, how could, how could you maybe redirect that?
[00:53:08] Um, and actually I, this is one part I bring the art making in is what if you made an image of that thing you wanna buy? It actually still activates the dopamine because you've made an image, you've made it real, then you can work with it. Do I want to buy that chair? I've made an actual image of it. I've sort of like expelled that energy.
[00:53:27] Now we're kind of completing the stress cycle and coming down. No money's been spent. What is the want beneath the want is, will that help you Pause? And often it does. It really helps people pause. Mm. Like maybe it's not that chair, it's that I wanna feel more comfortable in my home. Mm. Right. So it's like now we can back up and work on it.
[00:53:43] So that's one of the ways I bring image making into the work.
[00:53:47] Leah: Oh, I love that. Something tangible like that you can work with and see, okay, now that this is out in the world, am I fulfilled or is something else coming up? That's so interesting. I wanna return to the piece about social media. Hmm. And the thought I was having, like literally this morning before we hopped on this call, was I.
[00:54:08] So often I think in, in my work, folks aren't realizing that their relationship with food is disordered because disordered eating is not only normalized in our society, but it's often praised where it's like, oh, you're so good. You're so disciplined, but it's really disordered eating. And I was thinking about that this morning as I was on TikTok and it's like.
[00:54:28] Consumerism is so normalized and even praise of like, this is what influencers do. And, and so I, I, I, I feel like my hunch is like, that would make it more difficult to acknowledge or notice that like you actually are struggling with compulsive spending or your relationship with money. 'cause it's like everyone's doing it.
[00:54:48] It feels like everyone's doing it. I'm scrolling TikTok, everyone's doing unboxings and halls. Or even I've seen people say things like, oops, like maxing out my credit card for a Euro trip, like joking about something that's like actually could be a sign of like a really underlying, problematic situation.
[00:55:04] Rachel: It makes my heartbreak every time I'm like, Ugh. It's awe. Like I do. I feel sad about that and, and. Like a topic that came up for me is just very fresh and I unpacked it a lot in my social media and club and my emails is, is vacations. Vacations are such a status symbol, a thing you're supposed to do, an aspect of self-care.
[00:55:26] It signals so much, it signal signals class, it signals success and it's this expectation that like, oh, we should all love to travel and put our money towards it. And there are people who genuinely love travel and will put their money towards it. It, it is no shade on that, but we don't all. And when I started normalizing it, you know, a lot of people were like, I don't value travel anymore like I used to, or the pandemic changed.
[00:55:49] I love being home now. Or like, the cost of travel is just beyond what it's worth for me. Yeah. And feeling really counterculture to have that opinion of like, everyone's, oh, whatcha gonna do this summer? Are you gonna travel anywhere? Right. Everyone says that. I even, I've, you know, it's like this conversation topic and I just took my family on a big road trip and it, it was needed and it was good.
[00:56:10] Was it worth the genuine heap of money we put into it? I don't know. Yeah. Like, it was fine. It wasn't a disaster. We got some great pictures, but like, put in this email like not pictured sibling rivalry, spilling pickle juice in the luggage. Like, I just don't know if it was all worth the really incredible ticket price.
[00:56:32] And it's not about travel hacking and points and stuff like that. It's, it's just like why there's this standard of, of especially travel, because it's so visual. It's so on social media and to like actually saying like, I don't really wanna spend my money on that, even if I had it. This feels like a very quiet thing that we can't really like, normalize and say, so I don't that, that's my kick at the moment.
[00:56:52] Like normalizing not loving travel.
[00:56:54] Leah: I saw that in your emails or your e like your newsletter and Yeah, I think about like I'm someone who really deals with anxiety and like disruption to routine like that and being like far from home sometimes makes me feel untethered. Sometimes it's good, a good push, but sometimes depending on the season of life that I'm in, it can be a lot to, and then you have that like meta shame, kind of like, oh, I'm traveling, I spent a lot of money, I should be enjoying this, but I'm anxious, I'm stressed and like now I'm stressed that I'm, that I'm spent so much money and I'm not enjoying it.
[00:57:25] Like I'm not doing
[00:57:26] Rachel: this right.
[00:57:27] Leah: Yeah, exactly. What do you think about the impact of these. hauls and almost like even get ready with mes of like all of the makeup products and the skincare products and the hauls of like, shopping halls, unboxings, or even just like the videos I see of like, restock my whatever with me.
[00:57:46] And then it's like, it just feels like so much excess of like, ugh, five little brushes to put in the car. I don't know. Like that kind of thing. Right. I just, like
[00:57:54] Rachel: you said, it's, it's, it's the consumerism and you know, there's often a point with, with my clients, both one-on-one and in the club of like backing up and looking at this.
[00:58:06] Right. Or feeling like, oh, if I just had that product, that experience, I whatever that like, my life will be complete. 'cause it's literally what's being told to you.
[00:58:14] Rachel: Right. And these influencers are so good at it. Right. Like, my life was a mess until I did this one thing and it's like, wait, my life's a mess too.
[00:58:21] Like, it's just speaking, I mean. When the lingo of marketing, they talk about pain points. Yeah. It's like literally the knife is getting twisted every time you watch these things. My pantry doesn't look like that. My closet doesn't look like that. And I, it, it's, it, it speaks to the like middle schooler and all of us who doesn't fit in.
[00:58:41] I don't know who. I'm still very good friends with my inner middle schooler who definitely didn't fit in. And I, I think that, I wonder if you relate with this, I think the act of healing relationship with money ends up also being an act of rebellion. An act of like really bucking trends being pretty radical about what you're gonna do that doesn't look like anybody else.
[00:59:04] Speaker 8: Mm-hmm.
[00:59:05] Rachel: And it's hard. That's like really hard. You have, it's that inside out approach that we were talking about earlier of you end up being a little radical. And, and I often ask my clients like, when was a time that you like went against the norm? Because that is actually, that's what this process is. So trying to find like another example of going against a norm that like, ooh, I try to like find that little inner protestor.
[00:59:28] Yeah. That little bit of like, you know, who took to the streets and marched or who likes that. I'm not doing that. And, and I love that little part of us, that little adolescent part of us. 'cause I, I think that part is a really important asset because we really do have to buck trends to get better with money For sure.
[00:59:47] And I'm guessing with, with food as well. Yeah. There's, oh, there's quite a good book we read in the club called The Year of Less.
[00:59:53] Speaker 8: Mm.
[00:59:53] Rachel: I would've recommend it if anyone hasn't, hasn't read it. It's al it's a memoir and it's not a Marie Kondo decluttering. It's absolutely not. It is a person who has struggled with addiction, um, you know, a millennial woman living on her own and.
[01:00:08] And she, she's pretty rigid, but you, throughout the years, she actually goes through a interest risk cycle with this rigidity with money. And, um, we all read it in the club and it really impacted us. And you, you know, a lot of these folks who get, are trying to get better with money and probably better with health and stuff, leaves social media.
[01:00:27] 'cause it's just, it, it's, it's just too hard to have that knife twisted 15 times a day or more.
[01:00:32] Leah: Right. And I think of like the specific piece of preying on women and women's insecurities. There's this great quote, if tomorrow a woman woke up and decided they really liked themselves, imagined how many industries would go outta business.
[01:00:45] Yeah. And it's like, it's preying on this like, oh, like you wanna fit in, you wanna have like the, the all beige living room and that's like the aesthetic living room or you wanna fit in body-wise, so just do this diet or this plan. And that's such a, a. Effective way to market. 'cause like it's such a core desire for all of us to fit in.
[01:01:06] Mm-hmm. But I think in this work, often what my clients realize, and it sounds like yours too, is that is only temporary and surface level of fitting in. It's not the deep, like yes. Like, ah, I feel at home, my body, I feel at home with my values and living through my values and living in, you know, in alignment with the things that feel good and true to me.
[01:01:28] Not these like values that were handed to me by consumers and culture or diet, culture. Mm-hmm. Like I get to say unsubscribe or subscribe if, if I'm conscious of it.
[01:01:39] Rachel: And would you, if you get better with money, well whatever that means for you. If you have more savings, if you invest in things, and that means you're also saying no to a lot of things then.
[01:01:52] What's that experience of maybe doing better than your peers? Better? I put in quotes, you know, there's also like, that's an act of rebellion too. You know, I, I, I have a controversial opinion. A lot of women I see over donate, over contribute in a way that's beyond their needs. Another social pressure that like, yeah, there's a lot of injustice in the world and those of us who have our eyes open know that.
[01:02:14] And then we over donate and, you know, there's, I think there's some com really complex conversations going on there where I think women are, um, really, you know, diminishing their future with their money because they're donating now because of all the need. And of course there is, I don't have an easy solution, but I do see this happening where it's not spending, I do think some people are, are really over contributing in a way that like puts them in a pretty tough place financially.
[01:02:43] Leah: Right. Yeah. And we have to be resourced ourselves to have like longevity and sustainability with doing social justice work. I wanna ask you two questions that I ask everyone who comes on the show, and the, the first one I usually ask folks, what's your biggest diet, culture, pet peeve? I think for you, I'd rather kind of shift the question to what's your biggest kind of like, budgeting, money, culture, pet peeve?
[01:03:08] Hmm.
[01:03:10] Rachel: I think kind of what I, I talked about earlier that like, well, if you just saved 20% these convenient numbers that absolutely ignore our context, I find those incredibly damaging.
[01:03:23] Speaker 8: Mm-hmm.
[01:03:23] Rachel: Um, that's, I think that's my biggest pet peeve. Yeah. And I really only see the white guys talk about that. Sorry. But I do.
[01:03:29] Yeah. And, and I will tag onto that the, uh, the moral judgment about cons, consumer debt. That's a real pet peeve of mine, where for often if someone is carrying some debt, it's usually because they had to use it in lieu of an emergency fund.
[01:03:44] Rachel: So for someone who doesn't have an emergency fund, you're gonna use credit for your emergency fund.
[01:03:48] So I really try to normalize the experience of credit, but it is a tool, it's a tool of money. And if you don't have the emergency fund, often there's some story of survival with debt. So those two things, these broad based percentages that absolutely should not apply to everybody. And um, and the moral judgment about debt.
[01:04:04] Leah: Yeah, those definitely irk me too. Even just learning about those from you.
[01:04:08] Speaker 8: Mm-hmm.
[01:04:09] Leah: And the second question that I like to ask everyone, we're talk about the opposite of, of all of this, like prescriptive and restrictive ways of relating to food. Money is more like mindfulness and intuition based.
[01:04:22] Speaker 8: Mm-hmm.
[01:04:23] Leah: And I think the word intuition is so loaded. So I love to ask, what does intuition mean to you and how do you experience it?
[01:04:31] Rachel: I even had someone tell me mindfulness is also loaded. I don't know what that means anymore. It's like, fair enough. Um, what does intuition mean? There's this therapy approach called Internal Family Systems.
[01:04:45] Yeah, you're
[01:04:45] Leah: familiar. Yeah. I love IFS.
[01:04:47] Rachel: Yeah, it's so good. It really works with money stuff. And so I think of intuition as big self energy and that works better for me than intuition. 'cause I think sometimes we confuse intuition. What with like, oh, I'm dysregulated. I need that thing. That can feel like intuition, right?
[01:05:04] Not that that's wrong, but when I think about big self energy, which is one way to describe it, it's like the eye of the storm. What part of you is watching all the other parts do their thing? What part of you has that sense of knowing? Um, you know, there's these common ways people describe their self.
[01:05:23] Which is like compassionate, creative. I don't know. There's all these C's, I don't have it handy, and it's not neutral necessarily at all, but it's like that deep sense of knowing and everyone has experienced it. At some point, the more you can live from that self energy, um, it's, first off, I think it's your best financial tool.
[01:05:43] Absolutely. Big self energy knows what to do with money, knows the, you know, knows when to spend, not to spend what to do. Like it's, it's your best source of wisdom. And to identify the other parts that might have be really loud and, and have other opinions about what, what you should do, but the self, the big self energy.
[01:06:02] So I like the term big self-energy more than intuition. I think intuition is talking about that.
[01:06:08] Speaker 8: Mm
[01:06:08] Rachel: I thinking of the deep, that core part of you, that quiet part that's always been there and always will be. That's your intuition.
[01:06:16] Leah: Mm. I love that answer. I never had someone describe it like that big self energy, but BSEB, self C, big self energy.
[01:06:26] I love that so much. Is there anything else that you're feeling called to share? Anything on your heart that we missed though? Like I feel like there's so much that we could get into. Maybe we'll have a part too. There's so
[01:06:39] Rachel: much, and I think we were describing in so many ways the nugget of it, you know, which is like, there isn't a right or wrong way to do this.
[01:06:49] Um, you probably know more than you think you do. You probably need some loving relationships in your life. Often I'm telling people you probably that they are, they're doing better and they know more than they realize. They're maybe been dealt a shit hand and are really coping very well. You know, get a break from social media if you need it and.
[01:07:09] That, yeah, that big self energy is your best financial tool. And I know that everyone has it in them.
[01:07:15] Speaker 8: Um, yeah,
[01:07:16] Rachel: and I, I think it's the fight of our times and I think everyone has a right to have a loving conversation about money. That's my
[01:07:25] Leah: such beautiful words.
[01:07:26] Rachel: That's my, that's my thing.
[01:07:26] Leah: I'll end on that.
[01:07:28] Thank you, Rachel. I, I guess something I'm feeling called to add to this conversation to make it feel complete or talking about social media. Just, you know, noticing this stuff in the world as such a valuable first step that really requires a little shift in attention. So with my clients, often when we start talking about this stuff, they're like, whoa, that's diet culture, and that's diet culture, and that's diet culture.
[01:07:51] I'm like, yes, yes, yes. And then with this work, even just noticing of like, oh, like they're preying on me to try to get this 'cause it's selling me on more than just the throw pillar. It's selling me on belonging and acceptance and whatever. Just even noticing it, it's like cracking the code and seeing behind the scenes can help it take away some of the power.
[01:08:09] 'cause you're like pulling back the curtain and like, oh, I see why I want this or why I'm feeling this way. And that just like demystifies it a little,
[01:08:18] Rachel: oh, you know what sends me through the roof. The Lowe's slogan, you know, Lowe's home improvement. Yeah. Never stop improving.
[01:08:23] Leah: Mm.
[01:08:25] Rachel: Fuck. You're always on the wheel.
[01:08:27] Yeah. Never stop. It's the hedon. They're like, basically be on the hedonic treadmill with us.
[01:08:31] Leah: Yeah. Ooh, that's interesting. Horrible. That's so interesting. Yeah. Ooh, I, I'm gonna look out. Yeah, so notice it everywhere.
[01:08:40] Rachel: Oh, yeah. I went, I was at my favorite drive through the other day, and, and they had a sign in the window that said Bacon for a moment, all your problems went away.
[01:08:48] Leah: Yep, totally.
[01:08:51] Rachel: That's a sad thing to say.
[01:08:53] Leah: Yeah. And extremely powerful advertising.
[01:08:57] Rachel: Yeah. Send them to us, you guys, if you see them like out in the world. Diet, culture, budget, culture, like all of that. Like instant gratification, consumerism like it is in our face. Yeah. Is not subtle.
[01:09:07] Leah: Totally. So where can people stay connected with your work?
[01:09:11] Learn more about your offerings. Where can people find you?
[01:09:14] Rachel: Love that. Come to money healing club.com. I have a free, uh, seven day mindful spending challenge that comes in your email. We have a club, it's a low cost support group. Everyone is welcome. And um, I am still on socials debating if I'm gonna stay there, but that's all at Money Healing Club.
[01:09:32] Leah: Awesome. Thank you so much, Rachel. I have loved this conversation. It's the most, my brain, the wheels of my brain have turned in a while since like having, you know, a lot of the intuitive eating, talking with dieticians, it's great. And me too, at a certain point I'm like, I'm craving these more like interesting intersections.
[01:09:50] Mm-hmm. And I've just loved. Exploring this with you.
[01:09:54] Rachel: Yeah, and it's come up with my clients a lot like, about food and money and, you know, because that's not my wheelhouse. It's so fun to talk with, with someone who's, who's niched into this and, and is such an expert. So yes, I hope we will stay in touch and have more stuff to come.
[01:10:08] Leah: Thanks Rachel.
[01:10:13] Thanks so much for tuning into this week's episode of Shoulders Down. If you enjoyed the episode, if it inspired you or if you learned something, consider sharing it with someone to help spread the anti-D diet message. A special thanks to softer sounds for producing the podcast and making these conversations sound as beautiful as they feel.
[01:10:30] For more intuitive eating and body image support, visit leo kern rd.com and check out the blog and our free resources. To stay in tune with me and what's happening in my business and personal life, subscribe to my newsletter@leokernrd.com slash newsletter. Thanks for listening. Talk to you soon.
[01:10:54] Uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh.
[01:10:58] Thanks for listening to the Money Healing Club podcast. You can find resources and links from this episode in the show notes at moneyhealingclub. com slash podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, you'd probably really love my free email course on curbing impulse spending with compassion and mindfulness.
[01:11:14] Check it out at moneyhealingclub. com slash challenge. Do you have a question about how financial therapy might help you? Leave me a voicemail at moneyhealingclub.com. And I might answer your question in a future episode of the pod. We are in this together and I really appreciate it.
[01:11:31] -Music-