S2 E30: 🧚🏼♂️Meet the fairy godmother of financial therapy, Bari Tessler
EPISODE SUMMARY
What does it take to pioneer an entire field? Rachel sits down with Bari Tessler, the woman who literally invented financial therapy 25 years ago, just before Bari steps into a well-deserved sabbatical. They dive deep into why therapists weren't taught about money, how somatic psychology saved Bari's life, and what your Enneagram type reveals about your money patterns. This is a rare glimpse into the mind of a true trailblazer who transformed how we think about money and healing.
"The doorway of money leads to all of those other things... our sense of value and worth, how we communicate, how we don't, our sense of self, intimacy. It really touches everything."
Key Takeaways:
Therapists need their own money work before they can ethically help clients with theirs
Financial therapy addresses both micro (personal) and macro (systemic) money issues
Your Enneagram type reveals predictable patterns in how you handle money
Money work is a "trailhead" that leads to deeper healing and wholeness
Making money practices sensory-rich helps heal financial trauma
About Bari Tessler: Bari is the founder of financial therapy as we know it today. Her bestselling books "The Art of Money" and "The Art of Money Workbook" have guided thousands through money healing. After 25 years of teaching, she's stepping into sabbatical to answer a new calling.
EPISODE BREAKDOWN
02:30 | Why Therapists Aren't Taught About Money The shocking gap in mental health training and why it's ethically negligent
08:30 | From Somatic Psychology to Money Work How body-based therapy became the foundation for financial healing
16:00 | Micro vs Macro: Both Matter Why individual money work AND systemic change are both essential
25:30 | Your Enneagram Type & Money Patterns How personality drives predictable financial behaviors and blind spots
32:00 | The Red Phone in the Desert Bari's mysterious calling away from financial therapy after 25 years
Resources Mentioned
"The Art of Money" by Bari Tessler - The foundational text of financial therapy
"The Art of Money Workbook" by Bari Tessler - Interactive companion guide
"The Enneagram Guide to Waking Up" - Rachel's current read on personality and growth
Join the Conversation
What's your Enneagram type and how do you see it showing up in your money life? Have you noticed patterns that Bari described? Click the big orange button and share your insights: https://www.moneyhealingclub.com/podcast
Your next listen:
Dive deeper into body-based money work with our chakras episode featuring Jessica Boots
Use code PODCAST for 50% off your first month and start your money healing process! https://www.moneyhealingclub.com/club
Full transcript: https://www.moneyhealingclub.com/podcast
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[00:00:00]
Rachel: Hey, Money Healers. I am so pleased to share that I'm joined today by the Godmother of Financial Therapy herself, Bari Tessler. Bari has been shaping the field of financial therapy for over two decades, and she brings a somatic based methodology that she came up with. As the cornerstone of financial wellness.
Her bestselling books are The Art of Money and The Art of Money Workbook. She brings her [00:00:30] signature blend of gentleness, depth, and a love of dark chocolate. This was a special conversation that I felt really lucky to book right before Bari steps into a well deserved sabbatical from teaching, and she's got a new chapter brewing up and you'll have to see what she hints at.
In this episode, we also talk about our early days of money shame. Why therapists must unpack their money stories to do better therapy and what does the Enneagram have to do with your money habits?
[00:01:00] And just a reminder that the Money Healing Club Podcast is for information and educational purposes only. For help with your particular situation. Please seek help from a mental health. Legal tax or finance professional.
If you'd like to continue this healing work with me off the podcast, come on over to moneyhealingclub.com and you can see our membership, challenges, one-on-one work and courses to help you on our money healing journey.
So let's talk about all the things we don't usually talk about with a woman who [00:01:30] invented this way of working, Bari Tessler.
Rachel: Alright, I just wanna welcome the magnificent Bari Tessler to the Money Healing Club podcast. Welcome here Bari. Thank you for being here.
Bari: Thank you so much for having me, Rachel. Very happy to be here.
Rachel: you're right up the road. We are both, uh, we're two Colorado gals.
Bari: I, I forget that. Okay. Tell me exactly where you are again, so I just can
Rachel: I'm
Bari: picture it.
Rachel: I'm in Denver
Bari: Okay.
Rachel: And you're
Bari: Close.
Rachel: Are are you, you're still in [00:02:00] Boulder, right? A,
Bari: Yes.
Rachel: we had a kind of a, it was a life changing conversation for me actually at the book launch of your second book of, at the, um, what bookstore was it in Boulder. At
Bari: Boulder bookstore.
Rachel: Bookstore. That's right. We
Bari: Yes.
Rachel: and I brought my other financial therapy buddy and you dropped some wisdom on me and I left, like I had maybe been doing it, doing financial therapy for like a year or so and I was like, my girl, this is my thing.
Like I felt so [00:02:30] emboldened. So I just wanna thank you for that.
Bari: Thank you for reminding me of that. I had forgotten that. Okay. Very good.
Rachel: problem. So. I wanna start, let's see. I mean, we, you and I kind of have a shared approach to this work in, in a lot, in a lot of ways. You know, coming from. A deeply therapy background and a place that not only, you know, are we trained like, like our training does not include money. For me, I was sort of actively trained not to talk about money or that, [00:03:00] oh, if you're a therapist, you're not gonna make money.
We don't get into this for the money. And really feeling like that's just really deeply unfair. And also some of us have those skills and, and why isn't that a niche that, you know, we can bring in also? It's incredibly healing work for most clients, uh, where you are all dealing with money on the daily. And wondering if there are like themes for you that you've noticed in your many years in this work, [00:03:30] um, that still comes up. Like, like client themes that kind of recur again and again, that like speak to like some bigger, bigger experiences. Do, do you know what I mean?
Bari: There's hundreds. So I can never really answer this question, and I've been doing this work for 25 years, but I can reflect back. A few things that you're saying or that you're speaking to is one you and I both had very experiential type of trainings as a [00:04:00] psychotherapist. So that's different than someone coming from a financial planner background or accountant background or so on.
So we're steeped in this training, and I always say that my somatic psychology training in my twenties saved me
Rachel: Hmm.
Bari: and really got me through my twenties and gave me the skill sets and the somatic jewels. To help me move into my thirties and so on. And now, you know, I'm heading into my, the second half of my fifties.
Um, so that informs [00:04:30] everything for me. Everything. Um, I always tell the story of the first evening I gave one of, I gave my very first workshop in my living room when I was living in Sebastopol, California. Sitting in a circle with 10 people and the very first evening, this was in 2001, I said, okay, everyone we're gonna talk about money stories and you know, family money stories and family money dynamics, and just everyone shut down.
It was like deer in the headlights, everyone shut down. And I realized that very [00:05:00] first evening, what am I doing? I just spent a decade training as a somatic therapist. How am I not bringing the body check in and checking in with our bodies and slowing down and noticing, just taking a few moments to let all of us just notice what's happening, you know, on a physical emotional sensation level and, and then we can start talking about family money stories.
Right, and the very next week I brought in the body check-in. You know, one of my very first, so [00:05:30] I'm kind of going in a little detour, but come back. My training was maybe different timing than yours. It was in the nineties, so this was 1994 to 1998. There was zero discussions around money. Zero, not even. You know, it was we, and we talked about every single topic under the sun.
Beyond the sun. We really covered everything. It was so shocking to me that it was missing. And then we were supposed to start a private [00:06:00] practice and you know, and be able to talk about money and pricing with our clients or run a savvy successful practice and do the bookkeeping, let alone what are our own money triggers and.
Rachel: Yeah.
Bari: Bias and, and on and on and on. So, you know, it, it was just, it was so, and I was also taught, like you, we weren't supposed to talk about money, and we weren't supposed to want money and strive for money. So we were supposed to just do our good work in the [00:06:30] world and somehow be compensated as though we all lived on and ashram, you know, and then like a socialist ashram and everyone shared everything, right?
It was, and so I'll pause here, but yes, that was all. Left out. So as therapists, many of us have to grapple with things like, Hey, I want to create a good livelihood. That means making a good living. You know, being able to, for me, the, the impetus, like I [00:07:00] wanted to be able to buy really good dark chocolate, show up at potlucks, have a basket full of dark chocolate.
I wanted to be able to, you know, get some self-care and get a massage, and I could not do any of that on the low salary that I was receiving when I was still working internships and even post master's degree, I was still making such a low salary. So I wanted to break out of the traditional psychotherapy, um, world.
I [00:07:30] never wanted a traditional psychotherapy practice.
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Bari: the internet didn't exist at the time, so I had no idea that it was even possible to teach online and teach groups and large groups and any of that. I just knew I. That I wanna create a good livelihood. I, I love this work. I love supporting people.
I've been given all of these great somatic psychology tools and yet zero tools on how to run a business, let alone what even is my own money story. What is [00:08:00] my own money? Money emotion. So just had to discover that all. On my own, and it's still not being introduced in Master's in Psychology programs as we know.
Although my first book, the Art of Money, a Life Changing Guide to Financial Happiness, you're thank you all and you, and you have the heart.
Rachel: the book right here and it, this is just dogeared. I got little sticky notes sticking out of it. I mean, this is the one y'all, the [00:08:30] Art of Money by Bari Tessler and the Art of Money Workbook as a follow up. So just, just little plug there
Bari: Thank you,
Rachel: Yeah.
Bari: thank you, thank you. It's being, my first book is being used, um, as a textbook at a class at Naropa
Rachel: Yes.
Bari: on personal finance so I, you know, I want it to be in all of the undergrad and master's psychology program, social work, counseling programs, and we'll solely get on that.
Um. [00:09:00] But it's happening and I'm so
Rachel: Count me in
Bari: Okay.
Rachel: Bari. I mean, it is, I, I not only think it's so important to add, I actually think it's ethically negligent not to, you know, I think it's damaging to. You know, to not have therapists understand their own money work in order to meet their clients where they are. I mean,
Bari: Yes.
Rachel: say, well, you know, my program was, uh, 20 years or so after yours. it was very steeped in social justice and we definitely looked at poverty and class stuff, [00:09:30] but it was a macro, and B just laden with guilt where like, yes, I can understand a lot more about, you know, the systemic issues of poverty and all that, and that's important to know. But then there wasn't a lot of then how do I. Then how do I actually sit in a room in a therapeutic room with a client who is experiencing poverty? You know? And I remember, oh, you know, the guilt. Like I took off my wedding ring in my internship. [00:10:00] Because of, oh, we have to be so aware of the power differentials. All that's so important. But like that could have actually been a really important part of my case consult, was
Bari: Hmm.
Rachel: unpack my privilege.
'cause I mean, we did, we unpacked our privilege, right? But then I feel like the end result when it came to money and class and stuff like that, like, like guy never got resolved with it because we didn't do the, this. Extra layer of work that you have really developed of like the [00:10:30] body check-in of, Hey, this isn't like a null sum game.
I can do good work and make an impact and help people and make money like it's not one or the other.
Bari: It's not one or the other. And that's where we've kind of gone now, we've gone extremely to the other side of we're just doing macro work and you know, where there's systemic equality and that work is so important, but it can't leave out the deeply personal money story work and how we're gonna work [00:11:00] there and what can we control in this moment.
So yeah, I have a whole section in my year long, when it was a year long program, it was a year long program for years, and then I moved to more three months because I could feel, well. It was really my husband who said, people are overwhelmed. What's, you know, what's happening in the world? Everywhere is just so incredibly challenging.
And what's happening personally for people is so challenging. No one can handle a year long commitment or program anymore. Let's go [00:11:30] to three months. So we did that last fall, and that was a great. Great, great, great change and move in that library there's all this macro content because it's not my specialty.
So I go to people who specialize in there. There's so many incredible interviews on there, like what's, um, social justice investing. Okay, well, I'm gonna go to the founder, Rachel Robasciotti on that, what I mean and on, and there's so many excellent interviews in there, or articles or resources. So I [00:12:00] have that and yet.
My specialty is really the individual, the couple, the family, and our relationship to our work and contribution in the world. And that takes us pretty far 'cause that takes us out into our communities, right? And, and so, but I think micro and macro work needs to be done
Rachel: Yeah.
Bari: So we're not just left with, okay, so here's.
We understand all our privilege. While there's also, it's an intersection of all our privilege and where there's oppression and [00:12:30] where there's been challenges, and many of us have both. And yes, we may be on more of one end of the spectrum than the other, but it's not just one side or the other. There's it's multi-layers.
It's intersectional and we need to be bringing. You know, deep, deep, deep compassion and gentleness to this entire area.
Rachel: Yeah.
Bari: So it's not gonna help my wealthy clients if they're just [00:13:00] steeped in the guilt and can't move that in any way and are walking around I have you don't. And then are stuck there.
Rachel: Yeah.
Bari: There there's, you know, we can take that so much further.
It's. You know, guess what? Being born into a wealthy family has its blessings and gifts, and it also has its big challenges and its responsibility as well. I.
Rachel: it sure does.
Bari: It's not, it's not like, oh, you come from money, you've no other issues.
Rachel: Yeah.
Bari: know? So everyone needs to unpack the [00:13:30] family that they were born into.
Um, the beauty of it, the challenge, challenges of it, and really just adding in gentleness and compassion for everyone's story. Every, you know, so, I mean, there's so many layers to working with the entire economic spectrum, and I've always had folks. From that full spectrum, um, and ages 25 to now 85. It used to be 75, but I started getting folks in their eighties taking my [00:14:00] programs as well.
And I'll just say one more thing. One way that I've always worked with this as a business owner is that. Since I wanted to make a good livelihood, at some point I could have said, oh, well then I'm just gonna work with wealthy folks. Right? But no, I wanted to work with a wide spectrum of ages and economic classes and backgrounds and ethnicities.
And so I've always had what other people do as well. But just a, um, in my offerings, I've always had different price points. [00:14:30] So I've had my free stuff, I've had my lower price, I've had middle price programs. And then I've had my high end, which is my private sessions. Those have always been my pricest, my private time.
But I have so much free stuff and so, and you know, just so, so people could come in wherever they were at and get support. So there was a spectrum of services and that's always, that's been one of the ways that I've worked with this. Just one little piece, you know, just [00:15:00] little piece of this.
Rachel: it's been inspiring to me, you know, and that, that's also what I strive, you know, at, at first I was like, oh, I need to have a clear single program. 'cause that's what I was told. But I'm, I'm really unraveling that as well. I mean, granted it is more work, but there's such variety of where people are coming at, what their bandwidth is, what their, you know, cashflow realities are.
And, and what is so wonderful about this day and age is we actually can, can offer quite a bit of things. So I just wanna, I just appreciate all that you have offered [00:15:30] and I too have felt this shift, even just in the last few years of, um, kind of a bandwidth shift that everyone has in terms of commitment. I mean, I'm even going from 12 weeks to eight weeks, um, or even 12 weeks is feeling like a lot, you know? And, and I do, we have to keep our finger on that pulse. And I do think that's, constantly shifting or like even in the pandemic, everyone was just jumping on these online programs and now even that's changing.
And um, I find it very exciting. I find it like this exciting sort of. [00:16:00] Hey, we're supposed to meet people where they're at. Okay. Where are y'all at? I just did like a big community survey and it was really interesting, um, to see where people are at. And I do, I think it's, I do think it's changing all the time.
And I wanna touch on another thing you talked about, about like, okay, all of these, all of these layers from the family to your workplace, to your culture and intersectionality and the economy and politics. And then we have just as much multitude inside of us. And, and that's also where like. [00:16:30] Doing this money work is such an invitation to wholeness in a way that I keep getting floored by, with my clients and myself.
Like, oh, I come in because I spend too much money, or whatever it is. Or, you know, I'm avoiding my bank account. Okay. A very practical seeming thing. And as we go through the layers, oh, it, it's about so much more, so much more weight we are carrying and I think [00:17:00] of money as sort of like a, um, a little trailhead.
You know, it's used on like internal family systems, like a little trailhead, like here's the road we could go down. And it's always a good road to go down. And I, I really feel like the, this work and the work that you have so developed is, this is why therapists are actually so perfectly suited to do money work because like we can say there's a trailhead.
I have no idea where that trail's gonna go. I
Bari: Yeah, let me.
Rachel: I don't have a 10 step program, but I'm gonna walk that trail [00:17:30] with you and let's explore. And I'm okay with not really knowing where that trail's gonna be. At least that's how, that's how I carry this work. I'm wondering.
Bari: Yeah. So in my twenties, my favorite topics were relationships, sexuality, grief, death, body, food. I think that's all of them, right? And so.
Rachel: chocolate. Chocolate.
Bari: Chocolate. Oh,
Rachel: Yeah.
Bari: and chocolate always, you know, dark chocolate, [00:18:00] 72% and above always, you know, and so I, those were my topics, you know? That's what I thought I would be working with folks on, and I never in a million years imagine that my topic or doorway would be money, and yet the doorway of money leads to all of those other things.
You know, and, and even more than that, but, um, I mean, it, it, it touches on our relationships. It touches on our sense of [00:18:30] value and worth. It touches on. You know, how we communicate, how we don't, it touches on, um, really challenging dynamics. I mean, it, it, it really, our sense of it's sense of self, uh, intimacy.
I mean, it, you know, it, I, it's, you know, on the surface why couples get divorced, like the number one reason, maybe it's number two now, but of course it's never money. It's that we don't know how to communicate.
Rachel: Yeah.
Bari: In this [00:19:00] area we weren't taught or you know, here's another piece, is that. We were given an education in so many things, but no financial literacy.
Uh, I got an accounting class. My son freshman year had a great personal finance class and came home, was talking about compound interest and some other really cool things. They didn't talk about money motions or money stories that, but he, he got something that I didn't get, you know, and so financial literacy is such a missing piece.
Emotional [00:19:30] literacy is such a missing piece.
Rachel: Yes.
Bari: So those are so important to me. But also, you know, it's one of the, it's changing. It is changing, but, you know, so sex, everyone talks about, you know, everyone can talk about sex better than we did, right? Death, grief, race, like all these topics, money. It is, it's, you know, it, it's the one that's kind of on the forefront.
Um, when I started doing this, it wasn't, but, you know, now I get daily [00:20:00] alert Google alerts for financial therapy and financial therapists every single day, right? Um, so it's just something that I used to say is the last frontier for so many people. Um, 'cause I, you know, I, I've worked with, I work with a lot of solo women, but I work with a lot of couples as well.
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Bari: And so many couples who have a great relationship in so many ways, like great communication, great sex lives, great. I mean that this all change, you know, like goes in flow ebbs and flows. I don't wanna say like [00:20:30] they're great, but money is where they fight and it's more just they were never given the tools and skills.
So, so much is swept under the rug or so much is unconscious. And so, uh, how do you even go back to the beginning or start with a clean slate and say, we're gonna have a completely new kind of money date where we're not whipping out the spreadsheets and looking at the numbers first, or running to a partner while they're in the shower with their credit card statements.
Or right before bed talking about like, there's just so many things of [00:21:00] relearning or doing things in a new way. You know, Hey honey, is now a good time to have a money date? Or, Hey honey, can we have a five minute money chat? Or all these things. So we have great communication about these other things, but how do we set up new containers?
So that we can have more loving, compassionate conversations around money and so on. So my whole thing is like, I mean, it's not my whole thing, but I love making this as creative as possible [00:21:30] because money was so boring to me and I threw out my bank statements in graduate school. You know, my roommates can attest to that.
And I was like, well, what do you do with this? You know? And I just did not wanna deal with this area of life. So. I've come up with all these tools and practices, money dates, and
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Bari: body check-in, you know, renaming your categories and to make it more meaningful, more creative, more interesting to have a [00:22:00] relationship with.
So I'm going off on another tangent, but let's bring it back. Where were we?
Rachel: okay. No, I mean this, I'm like following. I'm right along that trail with you. I'm like, yeah, I don't know. Where did we start? I don't know.
Bari: Yeah.
Rachel: it's so true. And those three things are huge. I, uh, that you have taught that I really take in. And I, I also just wanna mention for our listeners, you know, money date. Might be a date with your partner or who you're sharing finances with. It's also just a date with yourself it's a date with
Bari: Oh yeah.
Rachel: and money. And I'm, I'm all about, um, making it a [00:22:30] sensory, a sensory rich experience. A sensory positive experience because financial trauma is real. And so when you're weekly or whatever it is, I, I encourage weekly a check in with money to just catch up on that tasky stuff we all need to do. If we can make it really pleasant, it is actually trauma healing. That's trauma healing, where like the brain is now associating this thing that had been scary with like, oh, the smell of Jasmine, or, oh, my favorite song. Like, why not? There's no reason [00:23:00] to not make it pleasant. And actually the reason to make it pleasant is that it is going to start healing that, that trigger, that freak out that you might have around money.
So I, I do, I love that. I love how you've brought that in and. Also, you know, I don't, a lot of clients come to me because they have been avoiding their money. There are some very practical pressures they have and I say, we can't really be a weekend warrior. It is the touching. It's just touching money in a little bit, a lot more often in a really pleasant [00:23:30] way. And that, you know, the ups and downs and the big emotions and fear you're feeling about it, it will gradually become like brushing your teeth. Something you do,
Bari: It's practices, right? It's. At the beginning, more often, five minutes a day, that could lead to 15 minutes twice a week. That can lead to weekly and the sensorial. I, is that a word? I love that. That's, you know, and, and always it comes, it starts with ourselves first. So [00:24:00] money day is right, is just sitting down going, Hey, money.
What do you need from me? What's up? You know, how are you doing? How are we doing? How are we feeling today? Let's do a body check-in. And for me it's always lighting the candles. It's always getting out the chocolate, always get out the lavender essential oil. And I don't like music, although a lot of people do.
They need,
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Bari: silence, you know? But it's like it's setting up your space. For that. And it's just watching and learning. Yeah. What do you do? Like try to pay your bills as quick as [00:24:30] possible.
Rachel: Yeah.
Bari: going on? Yes. But, but even just bringing attention and bringing all of these lovely things into your money date, um, and learning how to have a totally different kind of experience there.
Yes. Is healing is, is.
Rachel: I mean, and look like even if you make more money, which is often part of the equation for folks, is they do need to make more money. That doesn't mean you're not gonna have to deal with it. Like, I think it's kinda interesting actually, the more money you make, the more you have to deal with [00:25:00] it.
And, and so like. You're not gonna, I, I don't think it's realistic to say, oh, I just need to make more money and my money problems will be solved. Even though that could certainly take care of a lot of it. But have to learn to like how we interact with this thing, this entity. I find it kind of a magical creature that all of us are gonna have a lifelong relationship with it no matter what it's doing. it deserves to be a loving one, and that healing is so possible. It really, it really is, [00:25:30] and everyone has their own individual path to it. I, I don't know, my path is so different from anyone else's, you know, and I've now been in this long enough to like, wow. There's just such a multitude of paths to get there.
Bari: There is. That's why the Enneagram has always been one of my favorite little side tools. So, you know the, do you know your Enneagram type and
Rachel: oh, I've actually just, just been reading, uh, what is the Enneagram Guide to Waking Up a newer, newer book. It's excellent.
Bari: There's thousands of Enneagram books, but,
Rachel: I
Bari: [00:26:00] okay. Okay.
Rachel: a four, but I am a two, which I'm almost embarrassed about.
Bari: Why, so what, why, why? There's strengths and there's challenges and there's shadow and there's shame and there's, you know, so my mom's a two. I mean, there, there's like, no, and it, and I mean there's, it's like you're very generous. You know, you're very supportive of others and you know, you just need to.
Rachel: emotional [00:26:30] center. Yeah, for
Bari: Yeah, you just need to watch when you're starting to feel resentment or you're feeling like I'm giving to get,
Rachel: Yeah.
Bari: uh, you know, or something's building up and you're gonna explode.
But what's the sense of embarrassment around two, like you, like you liked four better than two.
Rachel: i did like four better.
Bari: Okay. So I think Go ahead. Go ahead.
Rachel: there, right? Two and four have just certainly have a connection
Bari: Oh.
Rachel: So I think it kind of makes sense. I was like pulling from both of them. I don't [00:27:00] know. I, I think it's like, ugh. I really, I've been working so hard on the people pleasing and I feel like I'm a recover. I am a recovered people pleaser, and that's something I have been owning. as I was just reading last night, I was like, yeah, that's, that's still there. You know? There is still, and it's okay. It is a strength. It's a lot of how I've gotten by in this world, and it's actually a root to self-love. Like I have never been as like authentic as, and integrated as I am today. I've like only recently been okay with people not liking me[00:27:30]
Bari: Okay.
Rachel: that's such a thing, especially doing online work.
We're like, eh, you know,
Bari: You're gonna get, you're gonna get, oh, you're gonna hear everything. I mean,
Rachel: wait, whats your type?
Bari: One of my,
Rachel: are you, Bari?
Bari: I'm a four. So I'm a four. Right. You know, there's strengths and challenges to all of it. Like there's, I mean, I, I'm, so it's really like, what were you. In your twenties and like I was the hopeless romantic, like to a "T", you know, my twenties.
But of course as we age, one of the best things about aging and maturing [00:28:00] is that we know ourselves better. And what was so challenging? Challenging becomes our strength. Or we, you know, it's like the people pleasers just ever gonna completely go away. That's not how things go, but we catch it quicker. We work with it.
We have so many tools. We have more understanding and acceptance and compassion for how this part of us works. You know, for me as a four, it's more about, um, like my emotions can be so big and I used to believe every single emotion. Sometimes I have to realize, oh, it's [00:28:30] just an emotion, it's just a passing emotion.
I don't need to take every emotion so seriously, you know, which is really hard for fours.
Rachel: yeah.
Bari: But, um, you know, I don't. Look at it as like, our money, emotions are just gonna go away one day, or we're gonna figure out this money thing or make so much money, you know, that we're done. It's, it's, we've already said like it's lifelong work.
It's a lifelong journey. Um, and I was bringing up Enneagram because every type is different. Like a seven is [00:29:00] always gonna say. What's their solution? Make more money. Like they're, you know, they're way into like, everything's a possibility. I'm just gonna make more money. And they hate looking at the numbers and looking at the bookkeeping systems and, you know, um, but it would be really incredibly empowering for a seven to get someone to sit down with them and learn a bookkeeping system and start tracking the numbers and, and know that I call that like just having your feet, the soles of your feet, like on the ground, uh, in the grass.
You know, [00:29:30] it's with your, like, everything's a possibility. I don't wanna take that away from someone. They're visioners, they're dreamers, and they, they can make more money. They're, you know, um, and I, you know, that's a great option. But again, it's not gonna solve everything. I know so many over, over earners.
I know so many high earners that go into debt. Okay, because they're not paying attention. Because they're not looking, because they're not spending in alignment with their values. They're not really getting in there. So you need both. [00:30:00] You need both. It is. It is and and not every phase is earning more and saving more and giving more.
I love those phases, but so that's why I was bringing the Enneagram, because it is like, what's your type? What are your behaviors? What are your go-to? What are your strengths? What are your challenges? All of that, for me, as a four, like my work just has to be incredibly meaningful and creative.
Rachel: Yeah.
Bari: know, if I'm gonna make money, which I like to do, um, and I'm about to go on sabbatical, so [00:30:30] that's gonna be interesting, right?
I'm two weeks away, but so that, you know, I, it has to be deeply meaningful and creative or I won't do it, you know, I just absolutely won't do
Rachel: Absolutely. You may be interested in, um, Khara Croswaite Brindle here in Colorado as well. She's a financial therapist and has just published a book on the Enneagram, and money
Bari: Yes.
Rachel: Yeah.
Bari: Yeah, she's interviewing me next week. Yes.
Rachel: Oh, see we all know,
Bari: So yes, we all
Rachel: each other. She
Bari: know each other. We all know each other, even though I wasn't a part of the Financial Therapy [00:31:00] Association, because that came eight years after I already started doing my financial therapy work. But I've, over the years, I've been in touch with a lot of folks, um, from these communities.
Yeah,
Rachel: Yeah, it's, it's great. It's a beautiful community. I
Bari: yeah. I need to read, I need to get her book. I need to get.
Rachel: get her book and has a great collab with, uh, with her and an Enneagram, you know, specialist. And they, they collaborated on it, which is great. And yeah, I heard I was not able to go to the Financial Therapy Association conference this summer, but apparently it was a total party.
I. [00:31:30] So it really is, it's this gorgeous movement. I think you were such a big part of kicking this off. Even if you were not formally involved, like I think we all reference you. I know I do. As the wonderful godmother of financial therapy. So actually just wanna ask you, the reason that I had reached out to you is I saw on LinkedIn this, um, you so beautifully described.
I think, was it a phone booth in the forest calling you?
Bari: Yeah.
Rachel: that
Bari: Yeah. In the desert.
Rachel: desert? Excuse me. In
Bari: But my husband's name is Forest and he [00:32:00] wrote that, so he wrote, he wrote my letter. You know, we've been collabing for years and years and years.
Rachel: It was so evocative
Bari: Yeah.
Rachel: Also, just like as a, an art therapist, I was like, I see it Bari. I see it, I hear the phone ringing and, and the red phone in the desert. Yes. It's like, it feels very Wes Anderson. It's like a Wes Anderson film. And, you know, without divulging too much, I, I'm just curious, what is your sense of what you're being pulled to next, or what is, what's calling you next?
Obviously it's a, it's a step [00:32:30] away. It's a, it's a real change and
Bari: Yeah. Yeah. I appreciate this question. I just shared a teeny bit last night 'cause I am on class 11 of, of 12 classes of my final three month Art of money group, and so I. You know, after spending my twenties training to be a therapist and do working internship works in the mental health field and hospice and leading authentic movement groups.
And then for the last 25 years [00:33:00] teaching financial therapy, right. And small groups and large groups. And so this September will be my 25th year. Um, I started getting a call, it was about 19 months ago, like a call from the red phone in the desert. And, um, I that I need a break and that I'm coming to the end of my financial therapy work.
And it doesn't mean that I won't [00:33:30] continue some kind of legacy work behind the scenes, create products, and that feels exciting to me. But I need a break from teaching and speaking and interviews. So this is one of my last interviews, you know?
Rachel: lucky I got to sneak you in.
Bari: Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. And I, so I, I just, there's a lot of intuition here.
There's a deep, deep, deep soul calling. I'm stepping into my 57th year in January. [00:34:00] There's a. My second Saturn return, I need to look into that more. What does that mean? I, you know, I'm an older mom. I have a almost 17-year-old, and, um, so it's everything from this phase of life to doing this work for 25 years to really needing a break from interacting and teaching and supporting and holding and
I really, really deeply do. But as far as what's next, this is what's interesting [00:34:30] is that I have an inkling, which I'm not ready to share yet, um, of what's next, but I also just want to step into that desert
Rachel: Hmm.
Bari: silence and we're going to the desert this Sunday for a week, which is great.
Rachel: Hmm.
Bari: New Mexico and I need to step into the unknown
Rachel: Yeah.
Bari: and really just deeply, deeply, deeply listen. Listen, there's important family stuff I wanna be present for. There's travel I [00:35:00] need to be present for. And so I am aware that there will be legacy, like legacy work that will do products behind the scenes, but. There's other work calling me and I really need the time and space to step into that.
Um, and it's a year sabbatical, so I am saying I'm not teaching and speaking and doing interviews for year, and I don't know [00:35:30] if I'm coming back to this to doing that, um, because I think other work is calling me that I'll share at some point down the road. So that's all I know. And I, you know, as our family, like I, the way my husband and I have, have always done it is that he's worked in my business, he's run things behind the scenes, he's set up my teaching platforms, like when I had my son 17 years [00:36:00] ago and I had to recover.
He got me set up online so I didn't have to leave the house for work, which I love. So I've been online for, right before that I used to drive, you know, one night in San Francisco, one night Berkeley, one night Marin, when we were living in California to teach a different class. And um, so we've always been like, he's been in my business, but he'll work for other companies or he's run his own businesses, but we've been 50/50 or sometimes I'm 60/40, sometimes he's 60.
I'm [00:36:30] 40%. But there have been times when he said to me he needed to move into something else and he would take six months to figure that out. And I've been in my business for 25 years straight.
You've been chugging
Rachel: along this whole time. Yeah.
Bari: been, I've been the steady study study, even though I've had many different business models and so on, I've been steady.
So when I started 19 months ago, kind of dropping the seeds that I need a sabbatical, this is really, you know, um, you need to listen to me, you need to hear me.[00:37:00]
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Bari: And he, you know, it was a few months ago where he find, well, it was really the beginning of this year. He heard it loud. He. He said, right, I'm gonna step up.
I'm gonna step up in my work and he's been got a new client. And then last night was offered a full-time, amazing offer with a e-commerce company. So he two within two weeks of my sabbatical. And we had other things, you know, that, that are happening for revenue and stuff, but still this is [00:37:30] huge. And so he's been needing to get this piece in place for family so that
I could step away.
Rachel: you to step away. It sounds like
Bari: Yes,
Rachel: it in just the most four way that you can.
Bari: yes. There's a lot of foreignness and everything because we can't be anything else. Right? Yeah.
Rachel: know, look, I know psychically that you are gonna open your own line of dark chocolate and you're gonna be a chocolatier and I'm gonna buy it. You're gonna be the Willy [00:38:00] Wonka of financial therapy chocolate.
I know it did. I guess it, I, tell me, I did.
Bari: That's one good idea. I think that I, that, that, that was an idea for many, many, many, many years. But, um, I don't think that's it. But like I used, what was the one movie? Chocolat It was a French.
Rachel: Uh,
Bari: Right. And I, and afterwards I, I went to, it was right next to Whole Foods and I like went to the chocolate aisle and I was just conducting like, what kind of chocolate you like, do you want milk chocolate, do you want [00:38:30] dark?
And I was just giving everyone recommendations in the chocolate aisle. Um, so I mean, but I did learn how to cook and bake during the pandemic when I turned 51. And that's something that's really important. But there's something else. There's something. See you.
Rachel: I am, uh, I will buy anything you're selling and follow you wherever you go. And I just wanna express, just, just deep gratitude for this time here, for these 25 [00:39:00] years and your 57 years. On this earth 'cause you are a gift and you've given world a gift and have inspired, um, so many people to expand this incredible thing that you got started.
So you, you are truly a trailblazing founder here, and I really, I hope for you that this sabbatical not just a, a way to step forward, but a way to, um, you know, really reflect on that legacy and integrate it in because I can imagine if you've just been working and working and working. [00:39:30] know
Bari: Yeah.
Rachel: really, um, take stock of, of this incredible thing that you've built.
And I am eternally grateful. So thank you so much, Bari.
Bari: Thank you.
Rachel: Yeah,
Bari: you so much.
Rachel: getting emotional. All right, well, I wish you a very wonderful day and thank you for being here.
Bari: You too. Thank you.
Rachel: I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Bari Tessler. I sure did. What a legend. Even though she's stepping away from this work, you can still [00:40:00] check out her website, Baritessler.com. That's spelled B-A-R-I-T-E-S-S-L-E-R.
And you can get her books anywhere, books are sold. But I do suggest you go to bookshop.org, which contributes a portion of proceeds to independent booksellers.
Did this conversation bring up any questions for you about the money healing process or about Bari's work or about your Enneagram type? I would love to get your voicemail to feature on a future episode of the [00:40:30] podcast. Head on over to moneyhealingclub.com/podcast. You'll see a big orange button where you can leave me a voicemail from your browser or phone any old time.
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