S2 E20: 🧠When Your Brain Loves the Hunt: ADHD & Money (Collab with Everyone's Talkin' Money)
EPISODE SUMMARY
How does your ADHD impact your financial life? In this collaboration with Everyone's Talkin' Money podcast, financial therapist Rachel Duncan sits down with Shari Rash, financial advisor and podcast host, to explore the unique challenges and surprising strengths that come with ADHD when managing money. Shari shares her personal experience as someone diagnosed with ADHD as an adult and how she's created systems that work with her brain, not against it.
💬 "I do this thing if I go to the store—I'll put the necessary stuff in one bag and then the extra stuff that I got on a whim in another bag. When I get home, I'm bringing the necessary bag into the house right away, and the other bag I'm keeping in my trunk. Depending on how long I keep it there tells me how much I really wanted it." - Shari Rash
Guest info:
Shari Rash is the co-host of Everyone's Talkin' Money podcast and a fiduciary financial planner at GWA Wealth who believes in holistic financial planning.
⏰ EPISODE BREAKDOWN
Understanding ADHD and Dopamine [00:04:00 - 00:09:00] Rachel explains how dopamine affects reward-seeking behavior and how this can manifest in impulse shopping and the "thrill of the hunt" when researching purchases.
Time Blindness and ADHD Tax [00:11:00 - 00:17:00] Discussion of how ADHD-related time perception issues can lead to financial penalties and the importance of using calendars and reminders as management tools.
Hyperfocus and Executive Function [00:17:00 - 00:24:00] Exploration of how hyperfocus can be both a strength and challenge when it comes to managing finances, and the importance of automation to overcome executive function difficulties.
The Importance of Support Systems [00:24:00 - 00:29:00] Why trying to manage money alone with ADHD can be overwhelming and the value of finding appropriate support systems.
Making Money Management Boring (In a Good Way) [00:33:00 - 00:39:00] Discussion about how finding your "sparkle" elsewhere and making money management intentionally boring can be a strategy for success.
📋 ADHD Facets: Challenges and Strengths with Money
Dopamine Processing
Challenges: Impulse spending, reward-seeking behavior, difficulty starting tasks that aren't immediately rewarding
Strengths: Excellent researchers when interested, ability to "deep dive" into financial topics, enthusiasm and creativity when engaged
Time Blindness
Challenges: Missing deadlines, late fees (the "ADHD tax"), difficulty planning for future financial goals
Strengths: Present-focused awareness, ability to be fully immersed in the moment, potential for creative solutions under pressure
Executive Function
Challenges: Difficulty managing multiple financial tasks, forgetting bills, struggling with complex financial systems
Strengths: Ability to simplify overly complex systems, finding unconventional solutions to problems
Hyperfocus
Challenges: Getting so absorbed in one financial aspect that others are neglected, difficulty switching tasks
Strengths: Incredible productivity and attention to detail when interested, ability to master complex financial concepts quickly
All-or-Nothing Thinking
Challenges: Setting unrealistic financial goals, giving up if perfect compliance isn't possible
Strengths: Ambitious goal-setting, thinking outside conventional financial wisdom
🛠️ Shari's Life Hacks for ADHD and Money
Time Blocking on Calendar: Schedule specific times for financial tasks, breaking them into realistic chunks to avoid overestimating what can be accomplished, and creatively celebrate completion.
Just Say No to Store Credit Cards: Create a firm personal rule to decline all store credit card offers regardless of the one-time discount, avoiding complexity and potential forgotten payments.
Simplify Banking: Keep accounts consolidated rather than creating multiple accounts that increase complexity. Focus on clear "why" behind any separation of funds.
The Return Bag Hack: When shopping, separate necessary purchases from impulse buys into different bags. Leave impulse purchases in the car trunk with the receipt—if you forget about them, return them!
To-Do List Ritual: Write down every task, even small ones, and experience the dopamine hit of crossing items off. Crumpling and throwing away the completed list creates a satisfying sense of closure. Tip: Make your first task "finish writing to-do list!"
📚 Resources Mentioned
GWA Wealth (Shari's financial planning firm): gwawealth.com
💬 Join the Conversation
Do you have ADHD? What money hacks have you found to help you manage money? We want to know and will make a follow-up episode! Click on the big orange button on our site right from your phone or browser and let me know [specific question related to episode] https://www.moneyhealingclub.com/podcast
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[00:00:00]
Hey, welcome to the Money Healing Club podcast. I'm your host, Rachel Duncan. I'm a financial therapist and I founded the Money Healing Club. You've come to the softest place to land in personal finance where we talk about all the things we don't usually say when we talk about money. This podcast is for education and entertainment purposes only.
For help with your particular situation, please seek help from a licensed mental health tax, legal, or finance professional. Today in the podcast I have a special guest, Shari Rash. She's the co-host of Everyone's Talkin' Money, which is a wonderful podcast covering like me, all things having to do with money, from the emotions to the practical.
So I suggest you check out her podcast. And what you're about to hear is sort of a part two interview where I talk about A DHD and money, and Shari shares some real personal stuff. Even her work as a financial planner gets impacted by her diagnosis of A DHD. I Think you'll love this episode to hear how [00:01:00] a professional in finance works with her own neurodivergence when it comes to money, and it really comes from knowing herself.
I talk about all the strengths and challenges that come with A DHD and how it shows up with money,
So if you like what we're talking about here, I want you to go over to Everyone's Talkin' Money Podcast to catch the rest of our conversation.
Now on with the show.
Rachel: Alright. Welcome to the Money Healing Club podcast.
Rachel: Today I have a special guest, Shari Rash. Thank you for coming today.
Shari Rash: Thanks for having me. I'm excited for our conversation.
Rachel: this is kind of fun 'cause I get to like turn the tables a little bit. Um, I have been a guest on your podcast and now you're a guest on mine. And we're kind of thinking these two episodes will really sort of dovetail nicely as, um, if someone listens to both of them to get kind of like a, a more. 360 view of like emotions and money. But today we're actually gonna focus on the very interesting [00:02:00] topic of A DHD and money. It's something that comes up a lot in my work. And it sounds like you have a personal experience with this yourself.
Shari Rash: Yes, I, um, am a adult that was diagnosed with A-D-H-D-A couple of years ago. Um, and it just felt, I, I felt like I was just having trouble keeping it together.
Rachel: Yeah.
Shari Rash: Um, I have four kids. I have a very busy household, so. It was like, is part of it stress? Is it part of it? Life, what's normal? And I had trouble, like starting tasks, finishing tasks.
Shari Rash: Once I was in it, I was good, but it took me a while to get into something and, you know, it, it, it, and it was work related. It was home related, just starting tasks and kind of the, the little bit of chaos of it all. And I was just like, you know, I don't think this is the way it's supposed to be.
Rachel: Yeah. Well, and frankly, this modern life isn't really built [00:03:00] for any of us. It's really not how us as humans can be. So I think whether or not someone you know feels that the A DHD diagnosis fits them, you know, modern life really goes against a lot of how we're, we're wired, right? We're not supposed to have this much stress stimulus.
Rachel: We're not supposed to be this, uh, busy. Um, we're not supposed to be doing it all. We're not supposed to be, so we're not supposed to be so isolated. So I think that's often why these symptoms really come up and get in the way of our functioning as adults because we are handling so much. And then let's say there is, you know, a neurodiversity going on, then it's just gonna get all cranked up. also, I, I know from our previous conversation, you identify as a woman and I do too, and. And, and also I'm a person who has been menstruating and I am going through perimenopause. Also perimenopause symptoms look a lot like ADHD, right? The brain fog, the memory problems. So I think there can be like so many overlaying factors for, um, adults with late diagnosed A DHD, and I'm [00:04:00] not, not discounting it, I'm just saying there's like so much there. And I think there's so much talk about it right now, which is great to talk about, um, to talk about these differences and it really shows up with money. I think it's a great question of just like, okay, what is ADHD? So I'm gonna go through just like some of the features, particularly how they pertain to money.
Rachel: 'cause that's when people usually show up on my door. So hear a lot about dopamine. The fact is, is that folks with a DHD are kind of low in the neurotransmitter called dopamine. And dopamine you know, we often associate it with kind of the reward chemical. It's, it's the thing that, oh, you feel great when you win the thing, or you're at the slot machine and you win and it's like this high you get, that's dopamine at work. It also does a lot of other stuff. It has to do with like memory and um, any kind, any kind of drive, anything to kind of get anything done. Dopamine is like the task manager. It also, yeah, it helps you store memories and I'm not a neuroscientist, but it's interesting. It does a lot more than just like, make you [00:05:00] feel sparkly and good. You know, it has a lot to do with hunger, um, you know, feeling, uh, momentary satisfaction. There's other neurochemicals that also have to do with like, feeling good, like serotonin and oxytocin. They come about in other ways of feeling good. Um, dopamine is, we all might be familiar with. It's, it's intense and it's short lived so. Folks who are, have kinda like a lower baseline with dopamine, tend to seek more dopamine inducing behaviors and activities. And that does, that can really show up as impulse shopping. Um, and, and how I like to see it is, is dopamine is the neurotransmitter that, um, helps you stick with the hunt. So like if you think of like us as primitive people, right, who are like hunting and gathering, like you really had to like stay after it. Right. This wasn't like a one and done. So dopamine is the thing that helps you stay after it and it helps you feel great after the kill. [00:06:00] And then it goes away 'cause it's done its job. And so that's sort of how our brains are more designed for like a longer term seek and then it's done. But instead in our modern life, we get like this seek and that seek and like, we're like stimulated all the time. So we get all these little like. Uh, peaks of like, oh, we got the hunt, and then it's gone, and then we go after it some more. And I'm wondering if, like, as I described that, does that relate to anything for you about like, sort of that like reward seeking stuff?
Shari Rash: It does. That makes a lot of sense because. Because when, when you were on my show, we were going through different topics to talk about, I had intentions on us talking about A DHD and money because I was like, well, tell me more about this, right? Because obviously I'm interested in for many different reasons, and we just had such an awesome conversation that we didn't get to it, which is why I'm here today.
Shari Rash: But it that May, and I, and I was super curious 'cause I know not, I, I just, [00:07:00] I chose not to research this before we spoke 'cause I wanted to be surprised. Yes. So, um, that makes a lot of sense because one, I do like treats. I do like to treat myself whether I'm, I'm happy I get a treat. If I'm sad, I get a treat.
Shari Rash: If I, you know, if I had a good day, a bad day, you name it. I'm, I can get myself a treat and, you know. Spend something and, and justify it because it's my treat for whatever emotion I'm having. So that reward system makes a lot of sense. But then also the, um, searching. So I like to look up things before I buy and I, I don't have much time to go to store.
Shari Rash: So I do a lot of online shopping and I really will. Curate what I want, whether it's for my house or clothing or what have you. Um, I'll follow influencers and I'll look at their stuff and so it, it, I definitely feel [00:08:00] that hunting and gathering, but then yes, after I do get it, I'm like, all right, that's done onto the next.
Rachel: Yeah. Right. And I wanna talk about the strength in this way as well. I think the way when people are very, um, in this way of like, I love the seek that they're good researchers, right? You can, like, if you're into it, you're so into it, right? We all know like the A DHD deep dive where you're all
Shari Rash: Yes.
Rachel: on the back and like you've got all your spreadsheets and you're super into it and you're super keyed in and it might not last forever, but like you, you pull off a miracle, right?
Rachel: You get into something super intensive, you got blinders on and that is an incredible skill, right? Sometimes we really need to be in that place and I think knowing when you're in that and like strike while the iron's hot, that's how I feel like if I am. If that feels like candy, I am just gonna let myself do it because incredible things happen, right?
Rachel: I find the best deal or I learn so much about something or I pull off something I couldn't have because of [00:09:00] that deep dive. So I, with all of these features of A DHD, I'm gonna offer kind of like the struggle with money and then also the strength, right? That's so there, like when you're in it, you're super in it.
Rachel: It, one of the things that's hard is like. If you don't wanna do something, you're not gonna do it. It's really hard to get yourself to do something that you don't wanna do, and that is kind of that low level of, of dopamine. That's why. It's hard to wanna do something that you simply don't wanna do that isn't very rewarding 'cause you actually need the reward stuff. Um, so a way to work with this aspect of A DHD is to work in, um, celebrations. I like calling 'em celebrations instead of rewards, you know? Um, just some people like, Hey, I don't wanna be connected like with having chocolate every time we do something. Maybe that goes against some
Shari Rash: Right.
Rachel: but having some way that you celebrate doing something that was maybe kind of boring or lame, know, it's like, okay, after I finish, you know, updating my budget or after I finish that horrible, um, customer service call, you know, I'm gonna go dance to [00:10:00] disco music. So then that's gonna help that hunt, you know, try to plant something that's not too far in the distance. Right? Not like after I write my book. No, no, no. We're talking about like, something that you can do in the next 20 minutes is to have some kind of celebration planned to make that very real.
Rachel: So that will help you get that like satisfaction of the hunt. Even to do like some mundane task. Would that be a useful thing, do you think, for you to do
Shari Rash: That, that makes sense. And I, I do that now with lists. I love a to-do list.
Rachel: Love a
Shari Rash: I love writing everything down that's going on in my head. Like every little errand I have to do every action, like a small thing. I'm writing it down because one, if I don't write it down, I might forget. But, um, it feels really good to cross it off and like then like scribble it out and it's done.
Shari Rash: And then like when my whole list is empty, like I crumple up the paper and I throw it away.
Rachel: go.
Shari Rash: yes, so
Rachel: Oh, I
Shari Rash: yes.
Rachel: I mean, that's actually kind of ritualizing it. I [00:11:00] think that's wonderful. I have I have a dear friend who said the first thing he puts on his to-do list is finish writing to-do list. So then when he gets the end of it, he can check something off so
Shari Rash: Yes.
Rachel: anyone can use that.
Rachel: Finish writing to-do lists. So, okay, so another aspect of A DHD is time blindness. Does this. Does this come up for you ever? Where like time doesn't exist or I don't know what day it is that, that kind of stuff?
Shari Rash: What my issue with time is that I, one, don't have a good expectation of how long something's gonna take. And then, um, I think I can do way more things in a period of time than what I actually can. So like. Uh, if I'm, say I'm having like a party at my house or I'm having some friends over and it's like I have to do all these things before they come over.
Shari Rash: I have to clean the bathrooms and vacuum and, you know, get out the plates and, and [00:12:00] prepare a food and, and all of this stuff. And like, I think I can do that. And like three hours, four hours and it's like. And, and then I'm always scrambling, and then I barely have time to shower and be ready. My house looks great.
Shari Rash: Everything looks great, but I'm a hot mess because I'm, my hair's still wet and all of this stuff. And what I started doing and what I, what I have implemented the habit of is I live by my, I cal, like, I have so many different calendars for, um, my different everything I do. My kids have a calendar. I have a calendar.
Shari Rash: I have so many different calendars and on my calendar. I start blocking the time in, you know, this half hour you clean the bathroom and this half hour you make the appetizer. So then I can actually see like, wow, Shari, you are way overestimating the things you can get done in this four hour period. And that's really been helpful [00:13:00] to me.
Shari Rash: But yes, time, time management is a major issue just 'cause I wanna get so much done in a short period of time.
Rachel: And I think what can happen with like the positive side, the, the strength of A DHD is like, there are moments where you pull off miracles in an hour, right? We, I think
Shari Rash: Yes.
Rachel: why we fool ourselves. It's like, well, that one time I did get it all done in an hour, and then we think that we can replicate that.
Rachel: And I think that that can also be tricky when maybe it's not new anymore. And some of the, I think unrealistic squashing in of our tasks is also 'cause it's exciting. That's that
Shari Rash: It is.
Rachel: Like, ooh, challenge accepted, right? Like, Hmm. Could I
Shari Rash: I love a deadline. I love pushing it right up to the deadline. Like, I'm gonna get it done and it's gonna be awesome.
Rachel: yes.
Shari Rash: not gonna get it early, like you're not gonna get it early It, but if you're gonna get it when you're supposed to get it, but it's, it, it's, and it's gonna be great, but it's not gonna be early.
Shari Rash: So just expect it when it, when it's due. Um, but yes, I, I definitely [00:14:00] push it to the deadline and I do get. A lot of things done when I'm focused, like when I'm working, like I am getting stuff done, I move faster than a lot of people. Um, which is why I think I overestimate how much I can get done. Um, but yes, ab absolutely, I agree with that.
Rachel: can't sprint a marathon. And when you're used to
Shari Rash: Right.
Rachel: I am a sprinter, that is how I work, and a sprinters need downtime. You can't push that hard all the time. And it's interesting thinking about, okay, so how would this show up financially? And there's, there's a, also, it's some additional aspects to time-blindness that I might just bring up, which is like, oh, it's been three weeks, It's like, oh, you needed to return something and the
Shari Rash: Mm-hmm.
Rachel: days. And you blink and it's 60 days later. So that, that also can happen where so much of our financial lives, like things have to happen on the first of the month and losing track of that sometimes. It sounds like you live and die by your calendar.
Rachel: And I do too. [00:15:00] Um, but I wondering if that ever comes up. You're like, wait, didn't that just happen? Or how long ago was that? Has that ever tripped you up before? Oh,
Shari Rash: Oh yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I, and I think when you have children and you're doing all the activities and you're, you, you know, the every single day. Sometimes it can feel like Groundhog Day sometimes with doing the things over and over again, but Absolutely. I mean, you blink, time goes by. It's like, wait, I didn't I just see you last month?
Shari Rash: No, it's been three. Oh my gosh. Like, I feel like it was just yesterday. That, that happens to me all the time.
Rachel: and we talk about the A DHD tax and often the A DHD tax is like real, the real financial implications of having A DHD is often the late fines, the
Shari Rash: Mm-hmm.
Rachel: fees, the missed returns, things like that, because things often have such a short time window. And because the, the strength of A DHD is, is dealing with things in the present moment really, really well. So it makes the, um, the, the planning or the feeling of time [00:16:00] passing a little bit more difficult to, um, to manage because of the focus on the present moment, which needs to happen. So that, that can definitely come up. You are, you are not alone with that. Um. So, okay, so we talked about dopamine, we talked about time blindness.
Rachel: Another aspect of it is executive function, which is, know, it's, it's a little hard to identify, uh, executive function because also like when you're in the zone, you have great executive function, right? You are taking everything coming in and you're holding multiple concepts at once, but it's, you know, kind of a day by day basis or when you're not in the zone, is your short term memory going?
Rachel: Right? And, um. You know, especially when things, you know, derail when you're not in the zone and how we're handling that. Like that's, that's sometimes where executive functioning, um, can be a real struggle when we're not in the zone. I think that's what we, you know, that's the aspect of this financially. So I. You know, like, oh, holding multiple things at once. Oh, if that bill can [00:17:00] comes due, but I'm not paid for that yet. You know, and maybe missing that and getting an overdraft fee, right? Sometimes that can result in not having the best executive functioning skills when you're not in the zone. So that's, that's another example.
Rachel: Of of how A DHD unfortunately can like really impact, impact our finances unless you get yourself in the zone. And I'll say like that is a little way of like folks with A DHD tend to love gamifying. So this is something that I recommend a lot, like getting back to going Pinterest. And find like those visual savings trackers that you have on the fridge and it's time to get out the markers. That tends to work really well with folks with A DHD where you can hold multiple concepts at once. You could track things. It helps deal with some of the time blindness and kind of can get your executive functioning together in a tangible way. So I, I was wondering, do you consider yourself a visual thinker?
Shari Rash: Yes, I'm very visual. Um, I like seeing things, I like holding things. Um, so that, [00:18:00] that's totally true with me. Um, as far as I like the, the visuality of everything.
Rachel: it's
Shari Rash: Yeah.
Rachel: sight, outta mind, right? I mean, I think it's
Shari Rash: Yes,
Rachel: a lot of folks, but like so much is digital. It's like, okay, if your
Shari Rash: yes, yes.
Rachel: doesn't exist anymore. So I'm a big fan of making things concrete Analog
Shari Rash: Mm-hmm.
Rachel: on the fridge, getting out the markers, um, just to have that visual reminder and then it can develop a closeness with, with money or whatever your goals are, and it can help with the, the time blindness and all of that.
Rachel: So yeah, I think working with the visual nature of the way folks with A DHD tend to think, um, you might think, oh, well money has nothing to do with that. Well, actually money has a lot. It can be very visual from, you know, from, uh, graphs and trackers and calendars to. Some of the stuff I do with art therapy, which is like creating a, uh, you know, getting into the visual relationships we have, we have with money.
Rachel: And I will, I'll, I'll speak to that in a little bit and I'll give you a taste of that. So I do think there's, we gotta work with the [00:19:00] way our brains are and sometimes it's gonna seem a little, uh, juvenile, like, oh, I'm like collaring. But it really, it can really work. We gotta work with. The things that work for us, and you know, for some of my clients it's actually, it's having like a paper journal to jot down their spending so they can just get more used to what their life costs.
Rachel: Because an app was just too removed and sometimes that makes a ton of sense. Yeah. Like I'm kind of with you. Like I have to touch it and feel it for it to feel, for it to feel real. So just huge permission slip to go analog even in this like big digital world.
Rachel: We talked about hyperfocus. Hyperfocus can both be a strength and a hindrance, right? Um, your hyperfocus was on, like getting your money stuff organized or, uh, buying a property, then great. But if your hyper focus is on like needle point. Yeah. the, you know, the bills are due or you missed, you know, invoicing a client.
Rachel: Then there there can be some real financial repercussions if we've got the blinders on and like a hyper focus. And I was wondering, do you [00:20:00] have any things that you have like totally taken a side quest on that there's then been some fallout from, I mean, you can share it, whatever you would like, but does that ring true for you?
Shari Rash: So I operate like I, and, and this does have a financial impact because Whatever's coming up, I have to tackle the soonest thing first, and then I can think about the next thing. So like if my kids have a birthday party and then we're going on vacation, and then I have a, or we're remodeling something in our house, I focus on the birthday party first.
Shari Rash: There's, I cannot pick out. Lighting and paint colors. While I'm planning a birthday party, I cannot think about what we're gonna do on vacation if I have that birthday party. And then once the birthday party's over, then I move on to vacation and I can focus on that. And then I move on to, um, whatever's involved in the home remodel.
Shari Rash: And that does have financial implications because when I was younger, I would sometimes miss a. Credit [00:21:00] card bill, and I'd be like, well, I was on vacation. I'm just gonna call them and say, I was on vacation. I'm sorry I missed it. And sometimes it worked because I'm, I was very nice and I just, you know, it doesn't happen that often, but, you know, it's like, okay, that, that's, it's not an excuse.
Shari Rash: Like that's not, it's, it's a reason it's not a good excuse. So, um, yes, I totally can see the, um. Once. Once one thing's done, move on the other and focused on one thing at a at a time, and how that can impact you.
Rachel: And I think just, I think we gotta know ourselves, Hey, I'm the kind of person, when I'm in one thing, I'm in one thing. So, you know, we can set up some structures around us. I mean, automation is definitely an ADHDers friend. You know, within reason though, 'cause sometimes we can over automate things.
Rachel: That doesn't mean you don't ever touch it, I will
Shari Rash: Mm-hmm.
Rachel: I'm a huge fan of, um, bank balance alerts, credit card alerts, you know, not in a way that stresses you out, but like, hey, like if my checking balance is at a [00:22:00] certain low point, I need to know about it 'cause I'm not checking my account that often.
Rachel: Right. So I think there's ways that we can really use tech to like help some of our financial stuff be a little more top of mind. Automate as much as we can. You know, I'll say that with a caveat. There's some folks who are maybe self-employed where like, Hey, I can't have those bills automated 'cause I'm not paid that consistently.
Rachel: So it can help just, just talking with somebody like what could you automate? Which, what makes sense not to, can you work with some of the, uh. People who you're paying like, Hey, this needs to happen on this date because I'm getting paid, you know, later. Because so often folks with a ADHD are on the self-employment track or creatives. Um, so I, you know, it can be a bit of an extra challenge, but I think automating alerts as much as possible. So you're just a little more familiar with like, where your balances are. Um, and. And then, and then working in some supports, right? Like, Hey, I know this about myself, or I, Hey, I know, you know, if you can start to track this on a calendar and having it on your analog calendar, [00:23:00] those dates or those bills are due on those dates, and kind of having a visual tracking of your cash flow coming in and out can be, can be very helpful.
Rachel: But I also wanna say like this is tough to do alone. And I think what can happen is, okay, we've got these strengths and these challenges, but what really doesn't work is trying to do it alone. I. Right, because I'm doing that one thing, that present thing really well.
Rachel: And do you know what that thing coming up like, maybe it's just not all up to us and we've gotta bring in some support. So whether it's friends, partners, a membership community, uh, a financial coach, you know, like there is no shame in needing some help with this because it's a tall order for anyone, any adult in this life.
Rachel: And I think us doing it alone and feeling like a failure is, is really the hardest thing. And I feel like it's. It's so, it's so sad to me because we just don't need to be doing this all on our own. 'cause it can really fall apart.
Shari Rash: I think when it comes to money in general, you know, we are so [00:24:00] slow to ask for help or admit something about it because it's looked at as a weakness when I. It, it, it just is. It is like, it is. No one's taught us how to do money stuff, right? You get your, you, you get your education. You, you get your job, you do everything you're supposed to do, and you're just expected to know how to handle money.
Shari Rash: And then maybe you do. Talk about it with some people whose brains may work completely different than yours. And it's like, yeah, I, for, I forgot to pay my credit card bill. You know, being like, like I'm thinking of like 23-year-old me. I forgot to pay my own my credit card bill. 'cause I was on vacation.
Shari Rash: Like, how could you ever do that? Like, that is so irresponsible of you, you know? And it's like. Oh, like, and then you get the shame and it's like, no, you shouldn't feel shameful. Like it is what it is. Accept it. Like sit in it a minute. Okay. That why, okay, why did that happen? And then you give yourself permission to [00:25:00] fix it or find solutions or talk to someone about it and you know, 'cause odds are there's other people that have experienced something similar and they can say, Hey.
Shari Rash: This is what I do to help myself, but we're always so often just in our own little vacuum when it comes to money, and it's just odd because we all deal with it. We all use it. We all have our issues with it or our quirks with it. Why don't we talk about it more? Exactly, and I think those of us who, you know, whether you're neurodiverse or not, but if you're just like a sensitive person and getting emotional and getting discouraged and that's so human and so normal, I just wanna normalize that. Yeah, this stuff can feel really hard, especially if oh, okay, well there's that late fee and I've no one to blame but myself.
Rachel: That's, it is a hard place to be. I love bringing in a more compassionate conversation to hear. 'cause that's actually how we learn. We just don't learn from shame. I. You know,
Shari Rash: Yeah.
Rachel: but guilt is another thing. Like guilt is sort of what you do. And like, okay, made a mistake.
Rachel: Let's try [00:26:00] to like, not have that happen again. Is there a system I could put in place? Is there some automation that could support me? Maybe I should, you know, need to have like a calendar ritual that's gonna work better for me. I'm a big fan of the money date to try to like chip away at the, at the life admin, so it doesn't. All pile up and have the little reward or celebration after taking care of like some financial thing every week. And however you might wanna gamify that or make it a more wonderful sensory experience, I think can be a wonderful thing is actually what we're talking about is like some trauma recovery. If we felt traumatized with money is like, hey, maybe this is like this is a safe thing and I have great money skills. That's the thing. I think a lot of folks say, oh, I have ADHD, therefore I'm crap with money. And I don't think that's fair. I do think that there's an A DHD tax. I think that this world hasn't been built for you, but I also think there's incredible strengths that come with this type of NeuroD diversion that we've experienced.
Rachel: And I think it's really fair to normalize that, [00:27:00] unfortunately we can't like change the banking industry and deadlines and stuff like that, but I think we can say, oh, but when I'm in it, there is no one better. Right. So when I'm feeling that sparkle, I'm gonna chase that sparkle and like nail it.
Rachel: And that's a wonderful thing, right? To be so present focused and hey, if that means that like I need some help reminding, you know, getting some reminders for a thing two weeks in the future. 'cause it's just not interesting to me. Okay. Like, let's, let's come up with some creative ways. 'cause
Shari Rash: Mm-hmm.
Rachel: to also come up with creative solutions than someone with a DHD.
Shari Rash: one thing that I do not do, and I say no every single time, no matter how much the cashier makes it sound like it's the best deal since sliced bread, are those, you know, the store reward credit cards. If you sign up for the credit card today, you're gonna save $53. And it's like.
Shari Rash: Oh, I, I wouldn't mind saving 50. No, Shari that is you. It's a random card at a random company that you never check. You don't have the app, you're not gonna get the app. Just say no, because odds are [00:28:00] you, you could then end up forgetting it and it's not on your radar. 'cause the billing cycle's always a little bit longer than you're used to.
Shari Rash: And you know, it's, it's just different. And it's like, so, so also know your weaknesses and then know how to say no to something because you, it, it just prevents you from. Being disappointed in yourself in the future. I just can't introduce that level of complexity. Yeah. I have, I have a credit card for home. I have a credit card for business, and I, I will not do more than that because yeah, it's just more complexity. Just know yourself. My working memory isn't that great. My, you know, executive functioning cannot handle that.
Rachel: And that is not a failure because also those store things are kind of bunk, like just don't even bother. You're not really missing out on anything.
Shari Rash: Yeah. Yeah.
Rachel: by not taking advantage of them. I just wanna like really honor that. Yeah, I love that Sometimes just having some guidelines for yourself, some rules for yourself so that you're not like, you know, agonizing over a decision.
Rachel: Like that's just something I don't do. That's
Shari Rash: Yeah.
Rachel: Do you have any other examples of things that you're just like, I just don't go there. I know I [00:29:00] won't, that will be bad for me. Maybe things that other people do. Do you feel like there's any other examples of that?
Shari Rash: Here's something that other people do and I, I've many clients that do it, and I really try to work them out of it. One, because I'm like, this is overwhelming for me. I work in money. This has to be overwhelming for you is having multiple bank accounts.
Rachel: Oh.
Shari Rash: I come across so many people that have checking and savings at one bank and checking in savings at another bank.
Shari Rash: And this checking and savings pays x, y, z bill, and this is their fun account. And they move money and da, da da da da. And I'm like, whoa, like this. So, and it just comes down to. What are you trying to achieve? I think you're trying to save yourself from yourself, and I would, I wonder if. Those people have ADHD or a form of neurodiversity and like they're trying to help themselves.
Shari Rash: Like they're trying to set up little, not like tricks, but like safeguard. So well then if I [00:30:00] see the money in my account, I know I'm gonna spend it. So if it's over here in this checking account. I'm not gonna spend it. But then what happens is there's overdrafts and you're not moving the money back and forth.
Shari Rash: So they could have this great idea, this great system that when they're in it, like, yes, this makes total sense. But when you're not in it right, and you're just living and doing your thing and you don't have alerts, set up notifications, you're, you're messing up, you're then getting the overdraft fees and all that.
Shari Rash: So it's like, alright, let's. Let's make your life as simple as possible. We're consolidating, like, and then if you build that account up to what you want it to be and it's consistently a good number for you, then maybe I'll, we'll entertain like that second checking account somewhere else. But again, like.
Shari Rash: Why do, why do we need this, like our why? If you're trying to save yourself from yourself, let's get to that first, and then that'll, let's just get to the root of the issue first [00:31:00] versus like these little band-aids we're putting on things
Rachel: a, I'm a fan of intentional friction
Shari Rash: I.
Rachel: and I wonder, I would agree with you. It's like, oh, the intent was, Hey, I need to have some buckets. Hey, we all love buckets for like savings goals, but like, is your bucket system something that you can manage where your, it's not gonna be like your ding done fees and stuff like that.
Rachel: I get a lot of clients that are also like, I don't trust myself. If there's 500 in the bank, I'm gonna be spending it. Okay. You know? And there are some structural ways you can, you can separate that also where there's like a three day delay, like you're not getting it instantly. And I do think that can help, but I think, I think you're right.
Rachel: I think we need to slow down and say like, what works for you? Are these accounts that you're getting into, is this a reasonable savings goal? Because another aspect of ADHD is sort of the all or nothing thinking, I'm gonna put it all there.
Rachel: Right? This is gonna feel so satisfying. It's that dopamine and um, you know, I think sometimes we need to back up. 'cause like all that could, that could really shoot you in the foot. When your car needs breaks and you've locked this all [00:32:00] up, right? Is this a reasonable amount? But for sure let's celebrate those wins.
Rachel: And maybe it's a $50 a month thing and not a $5,000 a month thing, because that's not, that's also not real. And this is where talking with a financial professional can really help you ground in like what is reasonable, what's realistic, and still honor. Yeah. Okay. There was some separation, there was some boundaries that you needed.
Rachel: That's probably where this account design came from. Um, is coming from. Yeah, not trusting yourself.
Shari Rash: I'll have people come to me and, you know, I'll be working with them, with organizing their money and, and investing and saving and all of that, and they'll come to me and like the first thing will be, I need x, y, Z account and I'm gonna put $500 a month in it. I'm like, okay. Where did you get that number from?
Shari Rash: Well, that just sounds like a good number. And I'm like, we gotta back it up. Let's back it up. Like I'm, that's wonderful. Like you, that is so great. But the last thing I want is for you to be sending $500 to an [00:33:00] account and then something happens and you put it on credit and you can't pay the credit card off, and then you're paying 25% interest.
Shari Rash: So I think in general, you know the intention, like what are you trying to achieve? And like, instead of like being gung-ho, like into it. Overzealous, let's just be more systematic about it and like tiptoe into the water versus just like diving right in. So I think in general people can do things to with perfectly wonderful intentions, but they may end up hurting themselves unintentionally.
Rachel: You know, I said to a client a while back who had ADHD, like I mean, money management. Once you, once you kind of like learn some of this stuff, like it is just kind of boring. Like find, she told me later that this really impacted her. I was like, you know, just find your sparkle somewhere else.
Rachel: Like, don't find your sparkle here. And yes, money can like provide us such joy and access to things and that is great. And like, hey, shopping will [00:34:00] always probably feel a little bit fun. But actually when you kind of like heal this part of yourself, it's, it's good to be boring. It's actually good for it to be a little more incremental, maybe automated, maybe someone else's helping you with it so that you can like get your sparkle in other parts of your life.
Rachel: Not this one. 'cause that
Shari Rash: Yeah, because with money, like what's the exciting part of it? Like
Rachel: yeah.
Shari Rash: people are more affected. Like if we think about our investment accounts, people are more affected when their account goes down, they feel more pain than they feel joy when their account goes up.
Rachel: yeah,
Shari Rash: Okay, great. My account's up 17%.
Shari Rash: Okay, fine. I lost 10%. Like, what? And it's like,
Rachel: Yes.
Shari Rash: But you, last year you made 17 remember. Remember that? Like, that felt really good, right? No. Um, so, but, and then it's like, oh, I. Ah, my dude, you know, it's 8:00 PM or 7 55 and my credit card's due by eight. Like, let me pay it real quick. Like that gets you like all fired up and like excited where it's like, oh, my [00:35:00] credit card was, is due in three days.
Shari Rash: I'm gonna pay it now. Like, wah wah like, my money leaves my account sooner. Like, so it's like almost like the bad things, almost like get more of a rise out of us. So we have to find ways to make it fun like as much as possible, like when you're saving. Give an intention to your saving. Like I always say, saving's no fun if there's no reason behind it.
Shari Rash: Otherwise we're just socking away money. And then you never have enough money and that number, that your goal, it just gets bigger. Like, so it's like instead I'm saving for a vacation and the vacation's gonna cost this much. I'm saving for my emergency fund and I need to have this much in here because the math is telling me that's what I need.
Shari Rash: And then when you, then, when you. Chip away at it and achieve it. That feels so much better than just, I'm just socking money away. Socking money away.
Rachel: actually this ties into our conversation from our on your podcast about like the restriction like, 'cause then it's all about restriction and not actually going towards something. 'cause
Shari Rash: Yes.
Rachel: savings is just future [00:36:00] spending and that's like
Shari Rash: Right.
Rachel: we don't think about it that way.
Rachel: It's like some of it's midterm, some of it's long term, but like the point of it is that you will be spending it. So what will you be spending it on? And then, then, oh, then I'm comparing that to spending decisions right now. Right. You know, would I rather this dress or would I rather go to Italy in two years and and then I have something real?
Rachel: And that's also where like making things real, making images about it can really help ground that and make it a bit more real when we've got the time blindness that sometimes works against us. 'cause oh, that thing right now feels so important. And the more we
Shari Rash: Yeah.
Rachel: work in a little bit more pause. maybe some rules for ourselves like you have, which I think is so great. Like I just don't do those credit card offers. Or I always, you know, take 30 seconds before I make a purchase or I put it in my cart and I sleep on it. You know, a lot of, a lot of folks have those kinds of processes, like we just need to slow down the impulse stuff. Also. If people have lost trust in [00:37:00] themselves because of impulse spending. Once we can kind of get some guidelines in where they start feeling savings and they haven't had that feeling before, then they actually get more excited about seeing that grow than the impulse spend. And it can take a little bit and I've told, I've told people like, look.
Rachel: This'll be in the future, but at some point you're gonna get more excited about that account growing than the thing you wanna buy. money's just gonna get a lot more boring and normal and safe. And that's actually the goal, not for it to be
Shari Rash: Yes.
Rachel: because we got plenty of that in
Shari Rash: Yes.
Rachel: life, like I don't, we don't need any more excitement for that.
Shari Rash: I think there's a Warren Buffet quote, I believe like investing or. handling your money should be like one of the most boring aspects of your life. Like it should, it should be boring. you just put the processes in place and you do what you're supposed to do. And, and yeah. It, it is gonna be boring.
Shari Rash: And that's, that's a good thing. That's okay because then everything's working as it as it should. Um, [00:38:00] about the impulse spending, I do this trick that. If I get, and again, I don't shop in stores too often, um, because I do like, Ooh, I like that. Ooh, that's cute. Da da da. You know, even we're, we're going through a remodel right now and I have to clear out my closet and my bathroom and, um, I'm setting up my, now my closet in our dining room, and my daughter's like.
Shari Rash: You have a lot of clothes, and I'm like, I know. And I also don't throw anything away. Like she's 14. I go, I still love clothes that I wore before you were born. And I'm just holding onto them. I'm not wearing 'em. They don't fit me. Like, I'm not the same person physically that, you know back then.
Shari Rash: And it's almost like, well, I, I bought it. I might as well just hang on to it just in case. And like, so that's, that's a thing with me. But, I do this thing if I go to the store, um, like target's obviously a big one for everyone. Like we spend way too much money at Target or what have you. when [00:39:00] I bag I'll put like the necessary stuff in one bag and then the extra stuff that I got like on a whim in another bag, so then I'm separating it.
Shari Rash: And then when I get home, I'm bringing the necessary bag into the house right away. And the other bag I'm keeping in my trunk, I'm just keeping it there. And depending on how long I keep it there, tells me how much I really wanted it. And uh, and then
Rachel: life hack.
Shari Rash: it is, it is. And then it's already bagged up and it's already in your car and you just go back and you return it.
Rachel: Oh my God. I love that. It's like the other side of, I've heard of people who are like decluttering and they're not sure if they wanna get rid of something. Like put it away for a while and see if you remember it, and then if you didn't, you
Shari Rash: Yeah.
Rachel: can get rid of it. This is like the reverse of that.
Rachel: I love that. That's so good. Shari, this has been so great. I actually, I have one
Shari Rash: Thank you.
Rachel: This is sort of like
Shari Rash: Okay.
Rachel: therapy side of the stuff that I bring in. I, I'm gonna ask you a question and I [00:40:00] want you to just give your first instinctive answer.
Shari Rash: Okay.
Rachel: don't overthink it. It's always right.
Rachel: It's never wrong and don't feel like you'll be judged or anything. Usually this is kind of a fun thing that's pretty immediate for folks, but it's one of my favorite questions to ask people. So I wanna take a breath. arrive for a minute. Let the chatter die down, and I want you to imagine your money as a creature, real or imaginary, doesn't matter. What is your first intuitive hit?
Shari Rash: It's funny, I have two things that come to mind and they're complete opposites. The first is Tasmanian Devil.
Rachel: Yeah. Yeah.
Shari Rash: Remember from Looney Tunes, he would just spin around. Yes, the cartoon. So he would just spin around and like, cause all this, you know, craziness. And then the other is a turtle.
Rachel: Oh yeah.
Shari Rash: So like, and maybe that's just the way my brain works as well, because I don't think money's boring.
Shari Rash: I [00:41:00] think it's exciting. I obviously, I talk about it many hours every day. Um, so I think that might be part of the Tasmanian devil in me. And then I also, but the turtle to me feels consistent. It's just consistently walking and it's just, it's there. It's not going anywhere, it's gonna be there. Um, so that, that's my,
Rachel: I love that. I think there are layers to it. I think money has a
Shari Rash: yeah.
Rachel: personality to it, and also like there's the fast money and there's slow money.
Shari Rash: Mm-hmm.
Rachel: different like ways that we use money and I think that like, oh, I experience money in these two different ways. I think it's very real.
Rachel: I think it's very honest. I think it's like a perfect emblem for like the A DHD brain with money. Right. think that's wonderful. It's okay that it's two things and it absolutely can be two things. That's beautiful. Yeah. Thank you for sharing
Shari Rash: Thank you.
Rachel: Now, I know you've got the podcast and you also have some of your in your own, uh, financial planning firm.
Rachel: Is that right?
Shari Rash: Yes, yes. Uh.
Rachel: about folks wanna reach out to you?
Shari Rash: Absolutely. So my [00:42:00] podcast, I'm the co-host of Everyone's Talking Money. Um, we come out with episodes three times a week, and it's just talking about all the emotional stuff when it comes to money, kind of the gunk that we need to get rid of and just acknowledge that we think certain ways about things when it comes to money and addressing it and, you know, trying to build your best financial life.
Shari Rash: Um, when I'm not behind of a microphone, I am a financial advisor, so I'm a, I'm a fiduciary, I'm a financial planner. I believe in. holistic financial planning. So I wanna know everything about you when it comes to your money, how it makes you feel, um, what keeps you up at night, what you wanna achieve.
Shari Rash: And we talk it all through, and I put plans in place for you. Something as simple as how much money do you need in your checking account, all the way to how much should I be saving for retirement? How much should I be contributing in my 401k or saving for my kids' college, or saving for. I don't know. I just think I'm gonna need money someday.
Shari Rash: So that's, that's what I do, um, with my clients. [00:43:00] And my firm is called GWA Wealth. Uh, my website is gwawealth.com
Rachel: Great. I'll link to everything in the show notes. This is great. Shari, thank you
Shari Rash: Thank you.
Rachel: willing to kind of be on the other side of this. Seat and
Shari Rash: Yeah.
Rachel: this whole thing with A DHD and money. And I think you have found some like wonderful, tips and tricks, but also beyond that, like coming from a sense of understanding yourself, which is what we've gotta do with money.
Rachel: It has to be very self-led. What works for you, what works for someone else might not work for you. And you've gotta
Shari Rash: right.
Rachel: and see what works for you. And I just really appreciate you sharing your own personal journey with us.
Shari Rash: Thank you. Thank you. It was very fun. I appreciate it.
thanks for listening to this collaborative podcast that I did with Shari Rash at Everyone's Talkin Money podcast. To hear the rest of our conversation, head on over to Everyone's Talkin Money podcast.
Look for an episode with my name Rachel Duncan, somewhere in there, and you'll be able to hear the rest of what we talk about, impulse spending, financial therapy, the [00:44:00] whole thing.
You can find resources, links, everything we talk about in this episode in the show notes below, or moneyhealingclub.com/podcast. Hey, did this episode bring up anything for you about ADHD, about life hacks that work for you that are maybe a little bit quirky? I wanna hear about them. Please go over to my podcast page, moneyhealingclub.com/podcast.
There's a big button there to record your own voicemail that will really help shape the podcast going forward. Hey,
if you're neurodivergent, you're dealing with money, how are you doing it? What are the struggles? What are the wins? I wanna hear all of it.
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