S2 E24:🧠 Are you *Psychologically* prepared for Retirement? w/ Financial Therapist, John Hankins
EPISODE SUMMARY
What happens when the thing you've been working toward your entire career—retirement—suddenly feels more terrifying than exciting? In this episode, Rachel sits down with John Hankins, a 73-year-old financial therapist who's not just studying retirement psychology, he's living it. After 35 years in IT, John reinvented himself as a financial therapist and brings both professional expertise and personal experience to help people navigate the psychological complexities of retirement.
They explore the anxiety of managing a larger pile of money than you've ever had to manage before, the identity crisis of "who am I if I'm not working?", and the complicated family dynamics that emerge when adult children are struggling financially while their retired parents sit on retirement savings.
💬 "We viewed our future-selves as strangers... what can we do to improve our relationship with our future self?" - John Hankins
Key Takeaways:
The 401k generation faces unique psychological challenges compared to the pension generation
Moving from "accumulation phase" to "withdrawal phase" requires a complete mental shift
Many retirees struggle with identity issues beyond just financial concerns
The concept of "future self" can help bridge the gap between present decisions and future needs
Intergenerational financial dynamics create complex guilt and boundary issues
Guest Info: John Hankins is a licensed clinical social worker and certified financial therapist who specializes in working with people navigating the psychological complexities of retirement. At 73, he brings the unique perspective of someone who has personally experienced the transition from accumulation to de-accumulation phase. You can find him at www.financial-therapy.me
⏰ EPISODE BREAKDOWN
04:30 | The 401k Generation's Unique Anxiety: Why managing a large pile of money for the first time creates unprecedented stress
14:00 | Identity Crisis in Retirement: Exploring "who am I if I'm not working?" and the psychological shift required
24:00 | The Future Self Concept: How UCLA research shows we view our future selves as strangers and what to do about it
33:00 | Intergenerational Money Dynamics: Navigating guilt, boundaries, and conflicting financial realities between generations
📚 Resources Mentioned
💬 Join the Conversation
Are you struggling to envision your future self or retirement? Click on the big orange button on our site right from your phone or browser and let me know what aspects of retirement psychology resonate most with you: https://www.moneyhealingclub.com/podcast
🎧 Your next listen:
If the intergenerational money dynamics in this episode got you thinking about family patterns, dive into "When Your Parents' Financial Trauma Becomes Your Money Mindset" to explore how childhood money experiences shape your adult financial behavior.
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John: [00:00:00] Then they introduced this concept of the future self. Think about yourself 10 or 20 years from now. And they noticed that, that what our brains do then is think of us. It was very similar. When we think about strangers.
Rachel: Welcome to the Money Healing Club podcast, money healers. I'm your host, Rachel Duncan. I'm a financial therapist and art therapist, and I founded the Money Healing Club. You've come to the softest place to land in personal [00:00:30] finance where we talk about all the things we don't usually say when we talk about money.
This podcast is for education and entertainment purposes only. For help with your particular situation, please seek help from a licensed mental health, tax, legal, or finance professional. Okay. Today I wanna ask you what happens when the thing you've been working toward your working life that's retirement suddenly feels more terrifying than exciting?
You might envision, oh, retirement is just gonna be all relaxing. But really when it [00:01:00] comes down to it, there's some big psychological shifts that need to happen as you shift into retirement.
So we spend decades in what's called quote, the accumulation phase, which is saving, working, contributing to 401Ks or other retirement plans and maybe hopefully watching that number steadily grow and you keep your hands off it, right? Try not to spend it, don't, don't pull from it. But then suddenly we retire.
We're supposed to flip a switch and become comfortable with spending it down. [00:01:30] We're supposed to go from, don't touch that money to this pile of money needs to last you the rest of your life. And not all retirement is that cut and dry, but if we were to back up, that's sort of the goal.
Today I am talking with John Hankins, and he's the perfect person to help us unpack this idea of the psychology of retirement. John is a licensed clinical social worker, and he's a certified financial therapist who specializes in working with people navigating the psychological complexities of retirement.
But here's what makes him [00:02:00] uniquely qualified is he's not just studying this stuff, he's living it. He's 73 and he reinvented himself as a financial therapist after 35 years of a career in IT. So he's experiencing firsthand what it means to shift from that accumulation to what he calls the de-accumulation phase.
In our conversation, we dig into the anxiety that can come up with managing a larger pile of money than you've ever had to manage before, that you weren't allowing yourself to touch. And the identity crisis [00:02:30] of, well, who am I if I'm not working? Who am I if I don't have a career? And all those complicated family dynamics that come up when adult children are struggling financially.
While their retired parents are sitting on retirement savings, so whether you're decades away from retirement or right in the thick of it, this conversation is gonna give you language for the tricky emotions that you may not know how to name. If you're supporting aging, parents or wondering how your own retirement story might unfold.
John [00:03:00] offers us both professional insight and the wisdom that comes with walking this path himself.
If this is a conversation that you'd like to take further as you become better friends with your future self, you are warmly invited to join me and other money healers in the Money Healing Club itself. It's a monthly financial therapy membership and learning space and support group for you if you are on the journey of learning about money, and we talk about the big ideas to the nuts and bolts.
It's where I spend most of my time, and it [00:03:30] is absolutely the most affordable and comprehensive way to heal your relationship with money. And just by using code Podcast, a checkout, you'll get half off your first month. So join me and other money healers at moneyhealingclub.com/club. So let's dive in to what we don't usually say when we talk about retirement with John Hankins.
Rachel: Alright, John, I'm just gonna jump right in and ask you from [00:04:00] your point of view as a financial therapist, what aspects of retirement are we not really talking about when we talk about retirement?
John: I think that the, the biggest issue that I've observed, and this is both, um, in clients as well as family and friends, is the anxiety that. Is part of being in what I'll call the 401k generation versus the pension [00:04:30] generation. The defined contribution versus the defined benefit that. You work for, however, you know, 30 years let's say.
And you're contributing and you have a match and you're doing all these things right? And here you are, you get ready and you retire. And now you are handed this task of here's a pile of money. And I think an an interesting thing about the pile of money is that there's a far larger pile of money than you have ever [00:05:00] managed in your life.
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
John: Okay. That's just,
Rachel: and I'll add that you have not let yourself touch for that long. Like that's why it's a pile of money
John: exactly. Yeah,
Rachel: have kind of blocked it out from your cash flow and then suddenly it's part of your cash flow.
John: Exactly. Yeah. And, and in a complicated way. And I think that that's, that's part of the whole picture is that you now have this, you know, significant pile of money. It is tied up in some [00:05:30] very complex ways in terms of the right way to withdraw it versus the wrong way to withdraw it. And oh, by the way, you need to make it last you for the rest of your life.
So, um, you know, well, how long is that? Well, you know, here's an actuarial table, you know, um, so.
Rachel: answer is we don't know. Right.
John: Yeah. Exactly. It's a total unknown. Um, I think , there's a another intergenerational layer on [00:06:00] this, and that is, um, kind of a guilt piece of like, okay, now I've, I've got this pile of money and here's, you know, my 30-year-old and they're really struggling.
And shouldn't I, since I have access to all this money, take that out and help my, you know, my child. Um, at this point it puts you, I think in a, you know, totally different [00:06:30] perspective from when you're working.
You know, it's like I'm working, I'm working hard, I'm making ends meet, you know, I'm not wealthy and I'm putting money in. I've been doing this for 20 or 30 years. I. It's this thing that's totally ignored is not the right word, but totally off limits. Okay, I retire. Hey, I've got a million dollars in my 401k.
Alright, here's, you know, my kid wants to buy a house. They can't afford a down payment. I've got a million dollars. How can I not [00:07:00] help them? Well, uh. I just think that's another layer and a really complicated question of, especially, we said that million dollars, it's gotta last you the rest of your life.
Rachel: Also million dollars arbitrarily. And I
John: Yeah,
Rachel: such an important also anchor point. It's like in some ways that's a lot of money. In some ways it's not money
John: yeah.
Rachel: Right. It's this interesting sort of magical figure that I think is out there. And John, what I do wanna back up a little bit, 'cause you talked about like the 401k generation versus the pension [00:07:30] generation. I'm wondering, is there a third generation here of people who have been part of like the gig economy, who have not been of work that has 401k. Like I, I'm even wonder, just backing up a
John: yeah.
Rachel: with the folks that, that I do a lot of work with, right. Who are maybe the IRA generation who have had to do it much more on their own.
John: Well, yeah, I think,
Rachel: yeah.
John: I, I think that that, um, is an even bigger challenge. Uh, I, [00:08:00] I've dealt with a number of people where yeah, they really have to figure out how they're going to make it. And they're, they're doing that at say 60, 65 or 70. Cognitively, they're in good shape, they're actually able to work.
Um, so they're able to, to, um, keep earning money to support themselves day to day. And they have a, small nest egg. [00:08:30] And, um, yeah, I don't have an easy answer for that one at all.
Rachel: Right, probably in 20, 30 years we're gonna see this generation who
John: yeah.
Rachel: 401Ks that were, it wasn't really managed
John: Yeah.
Rachel: no matches and they had to do
John: Yeah.
Rachel: I think it's gonna, that'll be, that'll be the next generation, John, of financial therapists
John: I think you know, we're already seeing some of that now for sure. I mean, when you just look at, the average savings that, um, you know, the typical 60-year-old has right now, I mean, it's not impressive, you know, at, at
Rachel: [00:09:00] what,
John: all.
Rachel: know, do you have any figures about like what is the average, I mean, we're talking also in the US
John: I think that's, I think they're talking like $300,000.
Is the, I mean, I think there's a big difference between the mean and the median there. But yeah, you're, talking six figures. You're not talking seven figures.
Rachel: And I think the real, the bucket of cold water here is in order to retire in order to support yourself leaving social security on the side, is that the goal really is something like seven figures. I [00:09:30] think that someone in their
John: Oh.
Rachel: thirties and forties that's really hard to wrap their heads around.
But now I'm not as much on the planning side as you are, but I do talk about like, your biggest asset is time, right? A lot of that growth, it just comes from the time, not so much how much you put into it. I mean, you gotta put some seeds in the ground for there to be a garden, but it is the length of time, uh, for that garden to really establish itself.
That's where most of the gains would come from, when to try to grow your. Your retirement account into a place where you could [00:10:00] actually draw from it for the final chapter of your life, or like that last third of your life. Right.
John: Absolutely. Yeah. And, and I have to say, I was really fortunate that, um, I was in a job when I was 35, that forced me to contribute.
Rachel: Me too
John: Yeah, I started working for that organization. I think I was 33 and they were like, well, how much do you want to put into this?
And I was like, nothing. I'm trying to pay off my student loans and [00:10:30] I've got a kid and you know, these different things. And, and it was like 35 and it's like, oh, here. And I had one of my coworkers who was in his late fifties, took me aside and explained to me, he really did me a big favor and said, here, you need to, you're forced to do this.
You need to do this. And. Here's a way to approach it. Uh, so that, and, and,
Rachel: story, John. I
John: yeah.
Rachel: yeah, 28, 29, and I was doing operations for a small construction company and it was owned by, uh, two [00:11:00] owners they said, Hey, let's, you know, they were kinda doing a SEP plan for themselves, but like, no, let's do a real 401k for everyone of. You know, we had eight employees and they're like, Rachel, set that up.
I was like, oh. So like,
John: Oh.
Rachel: hi, I'm here. I'm 28. Never thought about retirement account. So it was part of my job to figure this out for the company. So it was this great crash course in 401ks. So we got it set up. That was in 2007 and then 2008 hit,
John: Oh wow.
Rachel: is when all my contributions went in in 2008 during, at the crash. So just to back up, [00:11:30] it was a really lucky time to begin my 401k and um, the company had a generous match and would do kind of like bonuses directly into our 401k. And so it was kind of rocket fuel. It was also a scary time. I was like, wait, what? And. My bosses were like, yeah, let's do it. Like fund it now, right?
When like Lehman Brothers is collapsing,
John: Yeah.
Rachel: 'cause exactly, they're of that age. They're in their fifties, they're like, yeah, now's the time. I'm so grateful for having been on, um, kind of the [00:12:00] business side of that. Seeing that, how that benefited the business and the owners and really teaching the employees about it and, um, trying to, I was like, oh.
I mean, there's some setup here, but it's really not that scary and, and the added benefit of it being pulled out directly from, from your paycheck, it is a huge benefit as opposed to, you know, it's, it's a different hill to climb when you're self-employed or you work for a place that doesn't offer 401k. Is to automate it yourself. And that is something that I would really advocate is to, you know, everyone can [00:12:30] set up an IRA and that's your own 401k. Right. And that you'd be automating it yourself out of, you know, out of the earnings that you have.
John: Uh, absolutely. Yeah, I think it, it is a new, being an artistic type. Uh, it is, you know, really the, the, the, that whole. Type of up and down income and, and in, um, directly for services is really, uh, a big challenge in [00:13:00] just in, in, in paying your taxes and then saving for retirement on top of that. It's a real, challenge and it's, it's complicated for sure.
Rachel: And something I talk with my clients a lot who are, are self-employed is when you think of your rate, right? Your retirement has gotta be a slice of that rate. If you are charging $150 for something, you know, 15 bucks of that should go towards retirement and that is kind of like, oh wow, then maybe I should be charging $200.
You know, like, it, it starts
John: Yeah.
Rachel: little more sense [00:13:30] for the long term, um, to. You know, do meaningful work and to charge a rate that you're able to save with. And it really does underline that. Okay. We did a little detour, but
John: Yeah.
Rachel: back up to like, it sounds like the kind of folks that you typically work with are of the 401k generation, they've had a lifetime of careers maybe in different places, and they are pretty much relying on this
John: pot
Rachel: of money in their 401k that they've been contributing to from their paychecks. [00:14:00] It's been sort of automatically reinvested. They haven't let themselves draw from it or very little. And then here they are at, you know, in their mid sixties. And like, can I retire is maybe a first question or I'm, I'm just curious.
Like someone comes to you and like, how does the conversation start? Especially 'cause you have more of a psychological perspective than just the technical stuff. And I know
John: Hmm.
Rachel: you do carry both of those, but how does that conversation start with somebody who's like, can I retire?
John: Well yeah, I wish there was a single, [00:14:30] single conversation, but it's always different . I get it from the both the, what am I gonna do when I retire? I can retire, I've got the money. What am I gonna do? I hate the idea of retiring. I think I'm gonna be completely at sea, basically.
Uh, so it becomes,
Rachel: what am I going to do, if I'm not a worker?
John: yeah, who am I, what is my identity? Um, is a very deep question for a surprising number of people, uh, both men and women. So that is, [00:15:00] you know, exploration in into one area. The other side is, yeah, can I retire? And I think this goes back to like just very fundamental, all the issues that you deal with.
To me, the number one issue is, okay, how much are you spending? How much money do you need? Let's figure that out.
Rachel: Yeah.
John: and that becomes, um, I'm just surprised at the number of people where there is an obvious [00:15:30] emotional block to really digging into that. Oh, I'll do spreadsheets for people.
I try to give them tools. I try to nudge them along and the buried resistance there of like, oh yeah, that's a good idea. I really wanted to do that, but, you know, I couldn't do that and I can't do that this month, but I'm gonna work on that next month. Um,
Rachel: And
John: and I.
Rachel: caught you. I caught you not wanting to say resistant. 'cause there's this thing in the therapist community, we don't say resistant client anymore, but like [00:16:00] Right. Because it's like, okay, there's a reason why, right. That there is some kind of block there. And it's maybe because up until this point, hey, they've been working, they've had a steady paycheck, they haven't had to watch it. And now it's like they've, oh, I'm gonna be able to retire and do what I want. And then they meet someone like John and like. Well, yes. However, to really understand how you're gonna retire, you're, we gotta know what your life costs and if someone has spent, you know, most of their adult life, not having to pay much attention to that, that is a huge change, [00:16:30] change for them.
And they're gonna kick that can down the road. And I can understand that, especially having that transparent with someone on the other side, right, to show it with you
John: Yeah.
Rachel: that is a lot of vulnerability.
John: Yeah, absolutely. It, it, it really, uh, I think, yeah, vulnerability is the right word, because it, I think that the, the, the fear in that is, oh, you're gonna put me on a budget, you know, you're gonna tell me that I'm spending too much at Starbucks, uh, and. [00:17:00] I try to emphasize, I don't care how you're spending your money, let's just get our arms around.
How much is it, you know, what, what are you spending per month? Let's just start there. Um, it may be, Hey, this is, this is great. You know, you're gonna have enough if this is your lifestyle. You know, if, if $10,000 a month is your lifestyle, and that could be fine. You've got, you've got, you know, [00:17:30] money and then some to support that, or no, maybe, you know, you need to think about some things.
Um, there's, there's also the, uh, a, a lot of people miss the. The kind of technical aspects of moving from the accumulation phase to the withdrawal phase. 'cause they look at their paycheck and say, okay, here's how much money I have. Well, yeah, and you were, you were really cranking on [00:18:00] saving money, you know, putting your maximum amount into your 401k saving for your retirement.
Well now you're not. You're, you're retired, um, you don't have to do that saving
anymore. Okay. So there's really understanding those pieces is, needs to be disassembled, uh, to some degree. But just getting people to, um, feel comfortable with looking at the numbers can be, uh, [00:18:30] in some cases a, a real uphill battle, you know?
Rachel: And that isn't that just the basis
John: Right.
Rachel: the work, it's simply getting comfortable with the numbers. When there's financial trauma, there's a whole lifetime of, know, baggage and maybe conflict and even childhood stuff. You know, even someone who's in their sixties looking at retirement if they haven't processed some childhood stuff, that is gonna come out right now, isn't it?
John: yeah, I have, a client who uh, right now who is, would be in any, [00:19:00] any measure would be considered a high net worth client who is, in his late fifties. He's hired me to help him get ready for retirement. And, um, he's, he is a wonderful guy. Um, but he, the baggage that he is carrying is making it so hard for him to accept that he has been successful.
Rachel: Mm. Mm-hmm.
John: and that he's, he [00:19:30] is, uh, in fact, I told him this the other day. I said, you, you, you're, you're set for retirement. And he said, I, he said, I can't accept that.
Rachel: I can't
John: I just can't accept it. Um.
Rachel: a different way of being, like you said, like accumulation phase to withdrawal phase. thats a real 180. Although I do wanna say like, I think for some folks in this, it will probably change this generation's age. There might not be such a black and white, right?
Where people will, uh, work part-time and it [00:20:00] not be such a clear cut. I mean, certainly for some
John: Yeah.
Rachel: and I know, know, I know some folks like that, but I think for a lot of folks also, it isn't gonna be, ah, I turned 65 and I stopped working
John: Yeah.
and I just
Rachel: retire. That's also gonna shift a little bit as well.
Do you think, or do you see
John: Well, I think
Rachel: where maybe it's not as clear cut?
John: well, yeah, absolutely. I, I think that, that, there's a couple different components there and one is just our, uh, longevity that we, especially in my [00:20:30] generation, okay, baby boomers, our model. Is, yeah, dad retired and he lived for another 10 years. Um, you know, he retired at 65 and you make it to 75, maybe 80.
I mean, my father lived till he was 95. My mother-in-law lived till she was 101. Uh, so this was just sort of the harbinger?
Rachel: Yeah.
John: Yeah, just the harbinger of, and, and my, the, the guy that I work with, he plots, he, he, his plan includes, uh, you know, here [00:21:00] actuarily based on your health, your parents, all that sort of stuff.
Here's what we think your life expectancy is. 102. For my wife.
Rachel: Alright, John.
John: For my wife. It's like 98 though. Um, so,
Rachel: John. I'm glad to hear
John: but, but I don't, I don't think it's, uh, I, I think the PE more and more people are seeing that. And I think at the same time there's also that we are much healthier. We're not as worn out when we get to this point.
So, uh, the [00:21:30] idea of continuing to keep working is, um, well, it, there, there's, there's multiple ways to look at that. Um, and again, back to, can I retire? I. The, the, the statement might be like, well, and, and, and back to your time, is your friend here, right. Okay. So I've got this money in my 401k if I could, and I'm 65, and if I can put off
withdrawing, letting that accumulate. So you, you [00:22:00] look like two ways. Let that accumulate and, and defer social security until I'm 70. But maybe I have some other savings. You know, there's some other ways that we can look at this, but maybe I can go to a part-time job. You know, something where, um, able to, um.
Cover my cost of living, but let this money accumulate a little longer. Um, so that when I hit 70, then I am in, you know, I, I, I've, I've like taken a kind of a significant leap in some ways in terms of what I'm projected as, [00:22:30] as far as, as my nest egg is gonna be. So, um, I think that, that our capability is, um.
To continue working is important. And I think it also comes into play in, in the other piece, in the, who am I? What am I doing? Um, I mean, for me, you know, I'm doing this 'cause I wanna do it. I wanna be doing something.
Rachel: This is John's retirement right now.
John: Yeah. I mean, I'm 73 years old,
Rachel: You.[00:23:00]
John: so, and I, and, and my plan, I, I had a, a, a client a couple of months ago who, and I, and I.
I am helping him manage. He, he's in his fifties. I'm helping him manage his business. Um, and he said, well, I'm a little concerned because here you're doing this stuff and then you, you're not gonna be doing this. Maybe you're deciding next year. And I, and I thought about it, I said, I wanna do this for the next 10 years.
I, I.
Rachel: Oh
John: I, I don't, I, you know, I don't, I don't see any, any [00:23:30] reason to stop, and in fact, I see every reason to keep going because we know that, that these kind of activities are, you know what, keep us healthy.
Rachel: Yeah, that meaning making and
John: yeah.
Rachel: and the stuff that you and I do
John: Yeah.
Rachel: it's just so imbued with meaning that, yeah, it keep, keeps me going. Absolutely. I, I'll work for a long time too. And also I'm just a worker. I just love, I love working, but I mean, I'd love to work with less I guess,
John: Yeah.
Rachel: don't see me going to from a hundred to zero
John: Yeah.
Rachel: at all.
I definitely get that. Okay. So [00:24:00] something we had talked about, um, previously is the concept of future self. And how do you, well first tell us what the concept of future self is and where you get this idea and how you bring that into your work with your clients.
John: Okay, so there's this guy, his name is Hal Hershfield, who has been working on this idea. He's a, he's a psychologist, um, at UCLA. He, he's been working at this the, for the past 20 years. And, [00:24:30] um, he started, this is a very interesting, he was doing work. Looking at, and he was using a functional MRI, so he was looking at, this is like brain scan type stuff.
Um, and they were, they were doing MRIs and they were getting people to think about. Looking at pictures of friends and family and then looking at pictures [00:25:00] of strangers and they were looking at the differences. What was happening in their brain when they were looking at people close to them, and people that they would consider, you know, kind of unknown, distant people.
Then they introduced this concept of the future self. Think about yourself 10 or 20 years from now. And they noticed that, that what our brains do then is think of us. It was very similar. When we think about strangers, we viewed our future selves as strangers. And so he started off on this [00:25:30] road to, okay, what can we do to improve our relationship with our future self?
And he, he specifically works very much in the area of, uh, retirement savings, getting people to, um, save for retirement. And so, for instance, he did an experiment where. He had people wearing, um, you know, virtual reality goggles, and they, um, were in an environment where there was a mirror. And when they looked in the [00:26:00] mirror, what they saw was an aged version of themselves.
Okay. So that,
they found that when, when they introduced this whole idea of seeing an age version of yourself, and then gave them decisions around saving. That the people that had seen the age version of themselves were, were much more likely to elect for higher savings rates.
Rachel: Gotcha.
John: And they,
Rachel: sort of like that's a real person that I know
John: yeah, yeah,
Rachel: thats not a stranger anymore.
John: [00:26:30] yeah.
Uh, I think for me, and the way that I use this is just to introduce the concept that, that it's. I mean, let's face it, we live in a world where, and especially as therapists, we talk a lot about the past. Okay?
Rachel: We do.
John: Um, we only have the present moment to do anything.
Rachel: Yeah.
John: Right. Okay. I mean, that's just a kind of an existential fact.
Yeah.
Rachel: Yeah.[00:27:00]
John: And, and everything that we're doing, the only thing that it's gonna affect is the future. You know, we're not gonna ever change the past. So I think it's this interesting continuum and, when you introduce the idea of the future self, you know, this is, you think about you create this entity. It's just a novel concept, right?
create an entity that's you 20 years from now. Think about that.
Rachel: Yeah.
John: Who, who do you want [00:27:30] that person to be? Um, I think it just, it just makes it more concrete in some interesting ways versus a, um, kind of, you think about the sort of tasks or environment or, you know, kind of things. Okay. Yeah. I wanna have a really cool car.
10 years from now. Well, no, think about you, not the car. Think about you being the person in the car, driving the car. Um, and what that means. Um, so to, I, I've just [00:28:00] found it, um, it, it kind of a touchstone in a way
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
John: people have said to me, oh yeah, I need to take care. That's right. You, you, we, we talked about the future self thing.
I need to take care of my future self. See, I'm doing this, I'm doing some future self stuff. So it's, and he's done. Lots of different, uh, this guy just, he's a prolific researcher and publisher, so he is got just tons of stuff that's really just inspired me to think about, that, whole [00:28:30] perspective.
I think it's interesting just very briefly, that I do think, well, and this comes from me personally, when you think about the use this concept of the future self, that I think as you age we have this kind of slope where. When you're 30, thinking about the future self, everything is capacity wise, your ability to do things is continuing to grow.
Um, but I think when you're 60 or 70, um, and you think about the [00:29:00] future self, I mean, I have a, a, a very positive vision of my own future self, but I also, it's also within the context of. There's just some stuff that I will have less capacity to do. I mean, I'm a very, uh, passionate bicyclist, um, but I look at, uh, there's, you know, I, I'm not gonna be able to do a 50 mile ride.
You, I could do a 20 mile ride, but the idea that I, that I'm, I should sign up next summer for a [00:29:30] 50 mile ride. Really not, not a good idea. You know, it's.
Rachel: that's interesting actually. And when you were describing how Hershfield work, it reminded me, I, I have a feeling he was on maybe a bigger podcast a little while back because a club member told us that she had heard about this and she did an AI generated version of her picture that aged
John: Oh yeah. Yeah.
Rachel: 10 or 20 years, and she printed it out and framed it and put it on her desk
John: Oh wow. Okay.
Rachel: so that she really felt like I'm doing this for her. it really helped [00:30:00] her even just do micro savings every day. I'm doing this for her. And in art therapy we talk a lot about making the implicit explicit. Right? And that's exactly what this is. Like all of these exercises, like, oh sure, I know that I'm gonna be old someday, but we, it's not real. It's kinda out here.
And to really make it explicit, whether it's through image making or like an AI like he said, or I'm sure there's loads of journaling exercises, um, and things like that, that no, this is like a real person who actually is maybe like your best friend
John: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Rachel: [00:30:30] and who you have a responsibility to care for and to put yourself in that place.
Ah, what would future me want current day me to do
John: Yeah.
Rachel: for them? You know, what do they wish for me? and it might not always be, oh, I wish you would save all your money and da, da, da. Like, it could also be like, God, I wish you relaxed more. it doesn't, this is not all financial. Like I could definitely see
John: Yeah.
Rachel: my, my 65-year-old self be like, God, Rachel, like take a day off. I could definitely see that advice coming to me. So [00:31:00] it's really beautiful and it could be like, Hey, you know, I could have better maybe healthcare or get some more help at home if I had just paid a little more attention to my spending or had applied for that raise or, you know, like these little things we don't. You know, in the moment have a bit of a butterfly effect, right? For us, for us later on
John: Well,
Rachel: in so many ways.
John: I think in the, in the capacity piece, I think it's also very interesting that, um. I, I look at [00:31:30] that as, okay , I wanna have this capacity. And so there's, there's a, I'll just call it kind of an, an an activity and exercise component that, um, if I, if I build up these habits, like every morning I get up and I do five minutes of exercises.
I'm really religious about it. I do it every morning and it's like, I wanna build up these habits because I want to be able to, I wanna be able to walk around the block. You know, 10 or 15 years from now. [00:32:00] Um, and the best way to ensure that is to, and that's, you know, my future self and I wanna see my future self.
Um, and I actually do have this vision of, uh, what that should look like. 'cause I, 'cause now in, at my age now, I notice and I associate with a lot of people that are walking with canes that have had struggles and other people that are. You know, really making it happen.[00:32:30]
Rachel: It's what you do every day,
John: Yeah.
Rachel: not what you do every
John: Yeah.
Rachel: once in a while. It really
John: Yeah.
Rachel: every day. And with money, lifestyle, all of that stuff. So, John, I just thought of a question. 'cause a lot of the folks I work with are more of the millennial generation and their parents are boomers. And there's often oof tough conflict. Um, I think the generational differences between these two groups that you and I help you know, is really there and really real. And with you being, being kind of on the side [00:33:00] of, you know, the older generation who's looking at retirement or dealing with retirement, what dynamics do you see happening with their adult children?
Like you had mentioned earlier, you know, some of your clients feeling like, oh, I really should help them with that house, or I really should, know, and that from your side maybe you're like, well, let's think about that. What are you hearing on the parent side of you about what it's like for them to have adult children who have a really different financial reality than they did.
John: Hmm, let me think about that. 'cause right [00:33:30] now I have two, two clients where it's just the opposite where I have the, the adult children are trying to help the parents. Um,
Rachel: Yeah, me too. It's
John: yeah.
Rachel: it's a tough arrangement, isn't
John: yeah, yeah. Um. Well, I've seen plenty of and, and personally experienced it. Uh, yeah, I, there is absolutely no easy answer to that one.
That's for sure that I'll tell you, I had a couple [00:34:00] situations where I was giving this alot thought from kind of a philosophical level. And, um, this may be totally useless, but anyway, this is the way that I, I was, I was trying to help people with this was, um, that I was saying, let's think about this here.
You're, you are the secure 70-year-old, and here's your really struggling 30-year-old. Let's think about this in terms of rights and [00:34:30] responsibilities. Okay. That your 30-year-old, they have the, the absolute right. You know, it's sort of like a, a, you know, four cell matrix as far as you and them rights and responsibilities.
You know, they had the absolute right to go and be an alcoholic, or, to decide they're not gonna work. Um, but where that they, they do not have the right to hand you that [00:35:00] responsibility. You here's what your rights are. Your rights are to set boundaries. Um, you have a responsibility.
It is your child. You have a responsibility, but let's dial that responsibility in. It's not, it's not, it's not a blanket that you're taking care of, of everything. Um. I, I have another client
Who, um, admittedly it [00:35:30] was really interesting that she and her husband, they were, they had three kids and they were really, they're, they're now in their mid, mid sixties that were really devoted to their kids.
To the extent that. It really impacted their ability to save that they were sending their kids to private schools. They were paying for their kids to go to college. They, um, put a bunch of money into, into, um, buying a house [00:36:00] for, um, one of their kids. Uh, and their, they were in an interesting situation now where they're.
One's retired, one's still working part-time, but it's clear they may come into a windfall, but if they don't, it's clear that their, um, their financial situation is not dire. But they, they really need to think very carefully about how much they're spending because [00:36:30] they just don't have that much money. Um.
Rachel: when actually the responsibility will probably shift then to their kids to help them out down the line
John: Well, you know
Rachel: is the situation that's coming up??
John: It. Yeah. You would, you would like to think so. Um, but I, I, I was the really pushing thing. You've really gotta have some boundaries. You really need to, the, the thing you need to work on are your, your boundaries. And I, I thought about what you just said, and I really wondered if the kids could ever [00:37:00] make that shift.
Rachel: Mm.
John: I don't know. I'm just theorizing that when you grow up in that kind of environment, um, where
Rachel: you'd never think you have to take care of mom and dad
John: yeah, mom and dad are, are always there for me
turning that around I think is really, really, I. Challenging, um, that there is, I, I hate to use the word entitlement, but it just becomes, uh, how the relationship is structured
Rachel: Right.
John: um, yeah, you just, [00:37:30] you can't incorporate it into your version of reality.
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
John: know, your, your parents have been taking care of you. Uh, you, you don't even know what it means to, to really try and take care of your parents.
Rachel: and I live, I lived this firsthand, actually John, I don't know if you know this about me. My mom lived with us for the last five years of her
John: Oh,
Rachel: she died in 2021 and it. Really, I mean, obviously literally brought home for me how expensive old age is, [00:38:00] how drawn out it is. How you know you can have all the intentions in the world.
Oh, we're gonna, I'm gonna travel and when I retire I'm gonna do X, and z. But like you said, you're imagining that in the body you have, you know, today as a 45-year-old Right. And you know, just what long-term care it costs. Um, you know, what the medical care costs just, and even outside of medical care, like, you know, my mom moved in with us because like, she couldn't afford to like, have people help her fix the house and take care of the house.
Like it was just some basic stuff like that. [00:38:30] I, I think that was, that was a surprise for her. And she also really wanted to hold onto a little pot of money to be able to have something for her grandchildren and her children, which was very generous. But I think if we were to back up, she really needed that for herself.
And it also wasn't, it wasn't a substantial amount of money. And I, I think, I mean, it's like, I hate to be doom and gloom, but the number one priority is gonna be yourself in retirement, in old age. Like it really needs to. [00:39:00] And, Yeah. And, and we have a funny culture about taking care of elders. Uh, my husband who's Ukrainian, it is absolutely baked into the culture.
You absolutely take care of your parents. That's one of the reasons we brought in my mom to our house. I wouldn't have really considered it, and it was my husband's push that's just what you do. But that's very this. Pretty unusual. We talk about most modern day American culture, but really most of the world lives multi-generationally in a way that we don't.
So we're, we're kind of the outliers in this way that [00:39:30] like, oh, mom and dad, you're aging. You're in your own. You're on your own. that's not how other cultures go. And I feel like in those conversations aren't really happening. And the boomers have always been hyper independent and like. I don't know.
John, how's it gonna be for you to accept, help to turn the table on you? Like, you're really living it right now and I so appreciate like the philosophy and the way you're diving deep with this. Like is it for you to be in this chapter of your life? And like you said, like your [00:40:00] capacity's diminished, might you need to receive help.
John: Hmm. Yeah. Uh. Well, I have very close relationships with our, with our two children. Um, we just personally, we just went, went through for the last three years a situation with our, our daughter-in-law and her family, where her parents needed a lot of help and, um. It was good in the sense that I felt like it [00:40:30] established this, yeah, this is what we're gonna do, you know?
And
Rachel: Boundaries, like you said.
John: yeah. And, and it wasn't so much the, uh, the, um. We kind of, I'm staking a claim, you know? Okay. You know, but more that, yeah, we're gonna take care of each other. Uh, we recognize that we're gonna take care of each other and we, and, and we want to take care of each other. Uh, but I don't think that exists, uh, in, in every family.
Uh, for sure.
Rachel: like it started with, right, with bridging this [00:41:00] conversation that actually, hey, we all really do wanna talk about this and, and you know, back to the boundary conversation, we're actually talking about boundaries this month in the Money Healing Club. You know, boundaries is really more about what you are gonna do. It's what,
John: Hmm.
here's
Rachel: what I will do. Like, just like you said, here's
John: Yeah.
Rachel: to offer. Here's, you know, and that. The whole, everyone can calm down then. 'cause we're not making assumptions, we're not guessing, you know, things aren't there's, there isn't. The gatekeeping and it's, it's can be stretchy and it can be an uncomfortable [00:41:30] conversation at first.
But then once it's out, usually everyone benefits from that.
John: Yeah,
Rachel: cool that your
John: yeah, yeah.
Rachel: family can start that.
John: And I, I have a couple different clients where that, um, they've, this has been initiated by the younger generation to be, um, be because of the, the, the complexities that when you're, you know. You're in your, you know, you're, you're 30 or 40 years old, you've got a lot of history with your parents.
[00:42:00] Um, because of those complexities they want have brought me in to be a, a third party, an outside third party who can just. It doesn't have the, the baggage on either side. You know that we're not pushing each other's buttons, that we're just trying to, uh, have a factual and as, as a financial therapist, this is why they don't bring in with all due respect to the financial planning world, um, that, that why a financial therapist is better suited, because, [00:42:30] um.
I am happy to work on the numbers, but I'm also listening very carefully for what's, you know, what's happening here. And, uh, I mean, I'm just give you an example in this particular case with a, with this older couple that,
that's exactly my job is, okay, what, what's gonna make sense? And what kind of, what kind of additional support's gonna be needed.
But very quickly we got into here was this event that happened several years ago. [00:43:00] It's never been resolved. And for the mom, this is, this has gotta be resolved before we're really gonna be able to go forward. I'm not doing really couples therapy in that sense. It's, it's just gonna be me working with her individually for a couple of sessions.
But it's very clear that if we don't resolve this, you know.
It's gonna fail. It's just gonna fail.
Rachel: the stench of unfinished business. It just sits there
John: Yeah.
Rachel: until we come in. Right. And where it's like, [00:43:30] it's not all about the money. We're like, there's a block there and it will put everything at a standstill until we can work through it, and then things really get moving, which is like the cool part of therapy, right?
This thing that has not been spoken about. It's been sitting like a, you know, a turd on the doorstep and then we finally did it, and then things can really get moving.
John: I'll give you another example. Back to the, the previous couple that I was talking about. Some talking with this woman and they had done all, they had a very, really nice lifestyle, a lot of great things. Um, [00:44:00] but they had in, in. The year 2000, some things change for them. Where they, they, they, they moved in, they moved from this mode of, yep, we can a, you know, we're like really upper middle income and we can afford this stuff and our kids are going to private school to, you know, it's, we can still afford it, but we're, it's a stretch.
And this woman had been, she said, yeah, we've been doing this for, for 25 [00:44:30] years and. She said, and I've known all along that it's, it's a stretch and some years it's been a big stretch. And really in the past 10 years, it's really come home to roost. She said, I've never been able to talk to anybody about it for 25 years.
I've never been able to talk to anybody.
Rachel: Yeah.
John: Um, it just, it broke, it broke my heart, you know, it just broke my heart. I was like, um.
Rachel: Yeah. I mean, that's the sacred element I think, of the work we do. Yeah, I hear that all the time. Now you are the only other person who knows this big money [00:45:00] shame. Right? And it's, that's a role I
John: Yeah.
Rachel: take very, very seriously. Like I think we really get how vulnerable this is and how with all the stigma and taboo around money, how these things get locked in a box for so long.
And it can be scary to open it up, but like, oof, when you find the right. The right person to talk with, and it's safe and it starts to open. Incredible things start happening. It's, it's really possible if anyone listening, if you haven't to the financial therapist or really started that conversation, [00:45:30] um, we know it's scary, but it's so possible and really cool things can happen after that.
John: You, just hit on something that I want, I did want to come back to, and I think that, that for, for the retiree people facing re retirement, I. Um, this whole issue of shame for, for the people that are feeling like they, they haven't done a good job. Um, the whole issue of shame is just massive.
You know, it's just, it's, and, and [00:46:00] it is coupled then with, uh. These limitations, right? It's like, oh yeah. I, I, I, I was a bricklayer and, but I didn't save enough money. And, and that's what I know. That's who I am, and that's what I know how to do. And, um, now I've got a bad back and I really can't do this stuff.
And I, and I don't have enough money, but I can't, I, the, the thing that kept me afloat is no longer available to me. So, you know what? What's the best thing [00:46:30] I can do? You know, go be a greeter at Walmart or something, and just all of the shame in that. And then, you know, back to what I was saying before then of, of dealing with your kids, this intergenerational piece where, where the, the, the parents are bringing in the, you know, that kind of shame makes it just really a challenging situations and, and, and, you know, really in a, in a lot of cases, really almost impossible [00:47:00] without some outside help to get through that.
Rachel: Yeah, especially with longstanding things that haven't been dealt
John: Yeah.
Rachel: with for many years, it's, it really helps to have an outsider for
John: Yeah.
Rachel: sure. Yeah. John, I wanna ask you, uh, the question that I ask all my guests at the end of our
John: Okay.
Rachel: interview, okay. I want you to picture your money as a creature, real or imagined. What is the first thing that comes to mind? Don't overthink it.
John: Okay. Well, I, the, the, the first thing that comes to mind is [00:47:30] money's my friend. I.
Rachel: Money's my friend. Mm-hmm.
John: I just as a, as a, a large kind of cuddly friend. Um, and I just, I can only say that because I have been just extraordinarily fortunate in my life. And, um, so it is, um, I, I haven't gotten, I, I'm not rich, but I'm, you know, reasonably comfortable and, um.
That [00:48:00] attitude has served me well, I guess is, and I try to, I try to keep that going. That money, I, I don't, I, I, I just, I'm able to, to, to, to let it be my friend and not everybody. I gave you an example of my high net worth client
Rachel: So now friends, for everybody.
John: money is a, is a, is a, a very large bucket of anxiety for him.
Rachel: Sometimes.
John: for me it's my friend, you know.
Rachel: And you know, and I think that's the healing power of being [00:48:30] with someone like you, right? Because, because they can feel that friendliness when they're with you. You know that like John's really good friends with it, with money and then that, that helps soften the whole thing. Right? That you're carrying that with you in, in the work that you do and obviously in your whole life.
I love that. I have a vision. I dunno, I have my own, uh, image of your, your friendly money. It's like a big beanbag. what I picture.
John: I, I, I, I actually use the word embrace, uh, [00:49:00] with my clients. You know, that I want, I want you to, I want you to embrace your finances. Uh, I want, 'cause so many of 'em, it's like, oh my God, I, I don't, I don't wanna look at this bank account statement, you know? Um.
Rachel: And I think you, yeah, and you energetically being in, in an embrace with your own money. Well, I'm sure it helps with that process. Well, that's wonderful. John. How do we stay in touch with you and how do people find out about how to do some work with you?
John: Okay, so, uh, yeah, I have a website. It's [00:49:30] www.financial-therapy.me. Uh, and my email is john@financial-therapy.me.
And , I've got a, a, a YouTube channel where I talk a lot about different aspects of financial therapy and um, a Facebook page. Um, and I'm on LinkedIn as well.
Rachel: I will link all of that in the show notes. I can't wait to to binge your stuff, John. Well, thank you so much for being on the [00:50:00] podcast and, uh, I just I just wanna say to your future self, I think it sounds really good and I love, uh, knowing you and your future self.
John: Well likewise, Rachel, I really appreciate the work you're doing and it was great, uh, having this conversation today.
Rachel: Thank you, John.
Rachel: Thanks for listening to the Money Healing Club podcast. You can find resources, links, everything from this episode in the show notes below, or at [00:50:30] moneyhealingclub.com/podcast.
Do you have a question or a topic about financial therapy or about just living in this life with money? I'd love to get your voicemail to be featured on a future episode of the podcast. Check it out at moneyhealingclub.com/podcast. You'll see a big orange button there where you can record from any device you're on.
You can also be anonymous. We are in this together and I really appreciate it. See you next time.