S2 E1: 🔄 How you can repair and regenerate from harm in community w/ Maz George
Have you ever experienced harm in a community? It's common, and we all have the opportunity to learn, clarify, and regenerate, even through difficult conversations. Here, you'll learn the ingredients for safer spaces and healing conversations.
Financial Therapist, Rachel Duncan is joined by Maz George, a queer, trans, nonbinary coach, facilitator, sacred galvanizer and visual artist based in Brooklyn who supports people seeking greater joy, creativity, and connection with a focus on embodied liberation around gender, sexuality, and spirituality. We talk about the opportunities for growth in uncomfortable conversations, repairing harm, and promoting safety for all in all types of communities. We also talk about the special responsibilities for leaders of communities, and how the Money Healing Club is celebrating Trans Day of Visibility.
Maz fills us in on:
How compassion comes before comprehension when navigating community repair
How to create soft places to have hard conversations and establishing clear community guidelines
Developing clear plans for accountability and responses in group spaces
Why leaders need their own support outside of community to offer effective repair
The importance of claiming "no" and practicing boundary-setting
When you make a mistake or cause harm, do not isolate - here's what to do instead
The financial realities of trans experience and approaching trans visibility with safety
💬 "Visibility without safety is a trap. It makes you a target, it makes things more dangerous. And one of the ways that people create safety is through financial abundance." - Maz George
Key takeaways from the episode:
Community repair requires mutual compassion between all parties
Leadership involves both softness and the ability to set clear boundaries
Having a flexible accountability plan helps leaders navigate difficult situations
Supporting others through harm requires us to first regulate our own emotions
We don't need to solve everything in one conversation - repair is ongoing
Claiming your "no" is as sacred, if not more sacred, than your "yes"
Community is not about being with people exactly like you - it's about having agreements that allow for safe connection across differences
The gender binary harms everyone - for some it's annoying, for others it's fatal
⏰ Episode Highlights
[01:43] Rachel shares the story of reparative connection she had with Maz
[12:06] Strategies for leaders to address situations when things don't feel safe
[27:03] Guidance for participants when they experience discomfort in spaces
[37:59] Increasing equity and addressing queer tax for this year’s Trans Day of Visibility in the Money Healing Club
💌 Connect with Maz
📚 RESOURCES MENTIONED
How to Hold Power: A Somatic Approach to Becoming a Leader People Love and Respect--30+ embodiment practices to empower your team and lead with intention by Pavini Moray PhD
"Disclosure", Documentary by Laverne Cox (Netflix)
Financial Activist Playbook by Jasmin Rashid
Ring Theory by Susan Silk
💬 JOIN THE CONVERSATION
Have you ever had to navigate a difficult conversation in a community setting? What helped you feel safe enough to engage? Click on the big orange button on our site right from your phone or browser and leave a voicemail sharing your experience with community/relational repair. https://www.moneyhealingclub.com/podcast
🎧 Your next listen: [H3]
S1 E12: 🏳️🌈Queer Finance & Anti-Capitalist Money Strategies with River Nice
💫 Use code PODCAST for 50% off your first month and start your money healing process!
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[00:00:00]
[00:00:03] Maz: When we're thinking about our money, when we're thinking about our collective finances, when we're thinking about our individual finances, how can we use our financial power to further trans justice and to see it as a collective benefit.
[00:00:19] Not just, I'm doing this 'cause I'm trans, or I'm doing this 'cause I know someone trans, but I'm doing this because I wanna live in a world where the gender binary is less harmful.
[00:00:31] Rachel: Welcome to the Money Healing Club podcast. I'm your host, Rachel Duncan. I'm a financial therapist and art therapist, and you've come to the softest place to land in personal finance. This podcast is for education and entertainment purposes only. For help with your particular situation, please seek help from a licensed professional in mental health, taxes, and finance.
[00:00:56] Here, we talk about all the things we don't usually say when we talk about money. Let's begin.
[00:01:05] Rachel: Today I'm joined by Maz George. Maz is a queer, trans, non-binary coach, facilitator, and visual artist based in Brooklyn, New York. They support folks who seek greater joy, creativity, and connection. Their work focuses on embodied liberation, especially around authentic expression of gender, sexuality, and spirituality.
[00:01:27] They seek to center trans joy and trans justice. Maz is often dreaming up more equitable integrated futures. Maz offers individual and group coaching and consulting through their business, the Kindling Kind, and has a new SUBSTACK called the Maz Show.
[00:01:43] In this episode, Maz and I talk about what it means to be a leader.
[00:01:46] What it means to be a participant and community member, what it means to invite the needed healing conversations that communities need in order to grow. Maz also gives some clear guidance about how to approach situations where you need to advocate for your safety, as well as others' safety.
[00:02:02] Enjoy my conversation with Maz George.
[00:02:09] Welcome to the podcast, Maz. Thank you for being here.
[00:02:14] Maz: Thank you so much, Rachel. I'm psyched to be here. Thrilled.
[00:02:17] Rachel: I would like to start out with some story time. I'd like to start by sharing the story of how we connected in the Money Healing Club and this our connection led to this conversation we're recording today. And other important equity work that we are like right now doing to support the club and bringing in your, um, your expertise to help the club.
[00:02:39] But this also comes from a personal story that, uh, brought us to this place I wanna share. So, a few months ago during a group call in the club I was leading and you were attending, I jumped into an activity a group activity without fully considering the potential harm in that. And during the call, I did have a sense that something was off I reflected on it afterwards privately, but I did not take any immediate action. I think I didn't know how, or I just sort of hoped it would blow over. And a few days later, Maz you reached out to me, uh, on a DM to share that you did feel uncomfortable during that call and you offered to have a conversation if I was open to it, which I absolutely was.
[00:03:20] 'cause it was also, I was like, yeah, something was off there and, and this is great that we can talk
[00:03:25] Maz: Yeah.
[00:03:26] Rachel: And in that follow up conversation, we both shared our perspectives on what happened on that call. you were so kind about pointing out my blind spots. And our conversation led to plans for changes in the club, really needed changes you helped identify gaps in our community guidelines.
[00:03:43] And now we're collaborating to revise those to be more inclusive and safe for all members. We've also, we're also collaborating on doing a special event for Trans Visibility Week in April, which you are gonna be leading. So I'm just incredibly grateful to received feedback from you Maz, and to engage in a conversation that was so reparative and generative for me. it's not only created. I think a friendship and a working relationship here, and it will benefit our entire community. So we just wanted to expand on this, this connection that we've had and bring Maz expertise onto the podcast to spread it even farther. So I just wanna jump in and ask you, what does repair and having generative conversations mean to you, and what are the essential ingredients?
[00:04:33] Maz: I love this question and I'm so glad that you're open to sharing that story because I think it exemplifies for me like what repair is all about, which is about mutual compassion. And to me, like compassion comes before comprehension. So we can always approach with that compassion and then learn and and grow into our comprehension later.
[00:04:53] But like that story to me just exemplifies all that. I think that repair and safety, creating safer spaces, it's really about, it's really about creating soft places to have hard conversations, and it's really about creating roots so that we are connected in our shared goal of having a different paradigm, a different opportunity.
[00:05:15] I know so many of us were raised in spaces where. I mean, I, I, I'll speak for myself and for clients that I speak to all, all the time, but so many of us were raised in homes where conflict resolution was not modeled in a way that was very supportive. And we're here in, uh, at least in the United States, we live in a really carceral, um.
[00:05:35] Society, it's getting, um, more and more wild every day. And so it's really revolutionary to be like, actually we can change this between us and then we can let this ripple out. And I love that so much. And to me like that is what repair and safety are about, is being like, we're gonna start here in this small corner where we have the space to do this and we're gonna do it in a way that's regulated.
[00:05:59] That's compassionate, that's loving, that's curious. We're gonna find our common goal and then we're gonna go from there. And then we're also not going to be holding ourselves to these. White supremacist perfectionist standards. We don't need to get this perfect. This is messy. This is human. This is work that is always changing, is always fluctuating.
[00:06:18] It is a moving target. Even when I teach people about language or pronouns, you know, the thing I always really wanna highlight is like language is fluid. Language is. You know, it fluctuates. If we met someone from a thousand years ago who spoke English, we would, we would have some difficulty really experiencing, um, a fluid conversation with that person.
[00:06:37] And so things are changing all the time, and part of being in safety and repair and creating it is being willing to be fluid and is being willing to be wrong and not make it mean that we are a bad person and instead we wanna change the success metric to be like. How did I show up for this? Did I show up with an open and willing heart?
[00:06:57] Did I show up with an open mind? Did I really sit in myself and be willing to listen and be willing to problem solve with this person or with this community member, or with this issue that we're all facing? And so that's really the ingredients and that's really how I approach it and how I come to it.
[00:07:15] And it changes. It changes everything. Um. I mean, I, I think you know this as a leader of a community, you're like, yeah, this is part of our job that we have to do all the time, is like, hold this and model it. And that was something I was so thrilled about in the story you were telling about us because, you know, I am always happy and willing and excited to offer feedback and space for repair when I know that it's gonna be received.
[00:07:38] When I know that that's a mutual desire and the times that I felt that it's not a mutual desire, that's when I have to put up my boundaries. That's when I have to. Go find a different space because that one clearly isn't safe enough. For me personally, that's one of my, my experiences. And so it's like, yeah, we just want to be in conversation and we're not gonna solve everything in 30 minutes or one hour or one mediation session, but it opens up these bigger portals and these bigger discussions, and that's something that I'm so excited about with us because now it's led to like this really generative, beautiful, expansive experience that goes beyond you and I and in the club and on the podcast. And that's what's so cool to me about repair is like when we get it, um, when we get it in a way that's like embodied and regulated, we're then able to share it and to, to like make that, integrate that as part of us and as part of our experience.
[00:08:30] And I just, I love that.
[00:08:32] Rachel: Totally. And you know, and I, the conversation, the relationship with you has changed me also in terms of my relationship as a community host and as a leader, which is kind of like a role that I feel like, oh, am I, I'm just doing my little old thing, or I just hope everyone's gonna be okay. But this relationship and, and you bringing up the topic and then me reflecting also, like, not only was it reparative and generative and it, it, but it has taught me that like, ah, I had the spidey sense. I absolutely did, and I,
[00:09:02] Maz: yes.
[00:09:03] Rachel: responsibility to follow that. Not put it on someone who's maybe in a marginalized community, oh, it's their job to teach me.
[00:09:11] I never want that to happen again. been kind of a, a never again moment for me. And of course I've, I've grace with myself about that, but that like No, no, it is actually my reaching out is so important and, um, and, and checking in with members maybe individually. Um, you know, it's tricky. We're doing group processes and I'm holding a lot and like it's an online community and stuff like that. And, um. But still a community is a series of one-to-one relationships in any audiences, right?
[00:09:41] Maz: I love that.
[00:09:42] Rachel: is. I mean, it's of course a network and it is greater than the sum of its parts. Um, but it's, you know, it's like, yeah, I, I, I knew something wasn't, wasn't quite right and it was even, and it, and it was different and more than I had realized.
[00:09:55] So, you know, I think. That's as leaders, what that's, that's when we talk about DEI, that's what we're talking about, isn't it? It's like, okay,
[00:10:04] Maz: Totally.
[00:10:05] Rachel: actually have more capacity for discomfort than we think, but if we're gonna like have our spikes out, then we can't have a conversation and we can't grow as people.
[00:10:15] , even, even you offering to like, Hey, could I share it with you? I realized what a privilege that was. That like, that was not your job. That was absolutely not your job. And, um, I knew it was important and, um, and I liked you Maz and I just knew we'd have a good conversation. So I also feel felt safe, like that
[00:10:35] Maz: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:10:36] Rachel: be some awful conversation and, and I'm just so glad that you felt safe enough to, to bring it to me.
[00:10:43] Maz: I love hearing that and that makes me think so much. Like I see so much leadership in the world. Especially in online communities and in these online coaching spaces, this leadership of like, almost like a spiritual bypassing leadership energy. Like, well, everyone here is on the same vibe and it will be okay and we all love each other.
[00:11:00] And it's like, okay, that's gorgeous. But we also need someone to set the boundary and to set the guideline. And to me, leadership is, it is soft and guey in the inside, but also it needs a protective shell. And so it's like how do we hold that protective shell around it? And how do we hold ourselves accountable?
[00:11:15] And I love what you're bringing up because it's like, yeah, in one way communities are organic and they do, um, have their own energy and their own vibe. And then in the other hand, being the leader of a community is a responsibility even. Even when we have like the most amazing community ever that basically leads itself, we still need someone to sort of like be in a protector role or be in a leadership role.
[00:11:37] And um, to me, some of the most dangerous leaders I've been around are the leaders that are all talk and no action. And then. I'm kind, you're kind of getting that lip service and you're like, okay, I think we're safe here 'cause of the way you're talking. But then when things go down, you are unavailable for a real conversation, which is really interesting.
[00:11:57] Rachel: Okay here, here's a specific question, Maz, for you, what are some strategies you have or examples, guidance for addressing a situation when things don't feel safe? Um, and I know this is just so context dependent, obviously, um, but maybe we could explore a few different scenarios, right? Like we've got like, Hey, let's say
[00:12:17] Maz: Yeah, I love that.
[00:12:19] Rachel: In an online class, um, wh. What? What are some of your guide, some of your guidance, and maybe there's two sets, right?
[00:12:26] Are you a participant or a leader? 'cause that's two different things maybe. What do you think about that?
[00:12:32] Maz: absolutely. Let's start with the leader first, because I think the leader really sets the container. So if you're a leader, and I teach this to a lot of people who are leaders, especially in online communities or in coaching spaces, et cetera, and I love to help people build a flexible plan. I. That when something does inevitably happen, we are not sitting there in shock.
[00:12:53] We're ready. You know, we as kids, we would practice fire escape. Uh, I used to live in Iceland. In Iceland, there's a very clear plan for volcano evacuation. Very clear, concise even. And so I like to think that, you know, we have these things that we're ready and we can pull them out. So I like to help people create a plan of accountability.
[00:13:12] And it's really simple. It's like how are we gonna take care of ourselves? How are we going to create repair, and who are we gonna call in as backup? I think the thing I see leaders do a lot, and I've also felt this in my own body, is when we witness ourselves make a mistake, we go into punishment mode. Oh my God, I have to isolate.
[00:13:29] I have to figure this out. I messed up. I need to make it right. If we have a blind spot, if we messed up. What we need is support. So who are your mentors? Who are your DEI experts? Who are your, you know, what are you doing for me? I am a non-black person of color. I work with black people. I have a list of black practitioners that are at the ready that I've asked if.
[00:13:54] Hey, if I need a mediation, if I need help with this repair, can I call you in? Of course I'll pay you. Can I, can I call you in in these moments? So I have a little list for myself and in the back of my mind, I feel safer leading black clients. I. Supporting them because I know that if they come to me needing repair, if I harmed them, which we are in a world that is so racist, I was raised in this world too.
[00:14:16] I have it inside of me. I'm, it's my job to be working towards anti-racism all the time, and it's my job to be ready and able to respond and not react. When someone comes to me needing repair or when someone comes to me with harm. So as a leader, it's really good to have your like very basic, flexible outline of what is my plan?
[00:14:35] How am I gonna take care of myself? How am I gonna resource myself? What repair am I able to offer? And I think we have to be really honest with ourselves in those moments. If you are too activated to have a conversation with someone. Wait,
[00:14:47] get, you know, get yourself in a place where you are ready and able and rooted to have that conversation.
[00:14:54] And be honest about that. Be transparent. Hey, I'm actually not available for this right now. I need to go see my, my therapist or my supervisor, or I need to call in some backup and I'll be available at this other time. I think that's a very responsible, respectful, um, response. And then also having those resources, like at the ready, like who are you gonna talk to if something comes up?
[00:15:14] And then other things for practitioners that are really helpful for leaders that are really helpful, having an accountability form that can be filled out at any time anonymously or not anonymously, but having an anonymous option is really helpful. I have one up on my link tree. You can always give me feedback at any time.
[00:15:29] Anonymous. Um, if the jot form your name and your email are optional, I do let people know that if you want me to reach out to you to create repair, I do need your contact. But if you want to just tell me something and not have any responsibility after that, that's a completely valid way to offer me feedback and I welcome and support that.
[00:15:46] I make that known. Um, I think creating these spaces so that we're not always waiting for things to get really. Quote unquote, uh, bad before someone comes to us. So we're creating these places to check in often and in a way that's like, my door is open, I have a channel for that, I'm ready to go for that.
[00:16:05] Uh, the other thing that I like to do, and I do this more with one-on-one clients than in my group work, but I always have one-on-one clients practice claiming no. I let them know that there's an inherent power dynamic at play. Me as the coach and them as the client, I invite them to really see themselves as the expert of their life.
[00:16:24] And that I am here and I'm a person and I'm fallible, and this is an art, not a science. And they get to, you know, tell me no, they get to be angry with me. They get to have feelings around what we're doing. Um, and I'm. Willing and able to hold that. And so I think as a leader, being rooted in your own space is so important.
[00:16:44] Um, I worked with Dr. Pavini Moray, who actually wrote a book about holding power, and I think it was 32, 32 Somatic Ways to Hold power. Really amazing book. And Pavini taught me one of the best things, uh, they taught me was that when someone is really sharing vulnerably, our instinct is like to lean in. And poverty was like, no, no, lean out.
[00:17:03] Like make space. Like just hold the space. I. And that was something that resonates with me so deeply. I think when there's harm or when we have a misstep, our instinct is like, let me get close. Let me create urgency. Let me make repair immediately. Let me like.
[00:17:18] Rachel: Yeah.
[00:17:19] Maz: or let me get defensive and explain why I didn't, or let me focus on my intention, not my impact.
[00:17:24] And these are just things like, it's like actually we wanna make sure we're rooted in our center. We wanna take a breath, we wanna honor and address the impact, and then we wanna work on the intention and what happened between the intention and the impact that wasn't. You know, you didn't have an intention on that call to create any harm for me.
[00:17:41] I, I know that and I trust that. And so part of our discussion was like, okay, where was the breakdown between the intention and the impact? And that's a really valid thing to start asking. And so those are my like leader
[00:17:55] ideas and, you know.
[00:17:58] Rachel: claiming
[00:18:00] meaning, claiming the fact that
[00:18:01] Maz: Yeah.
[00:18:03] Rachel: to any of this. Even
[00:18:04] Maz: Yeah.
[00:18:05] Rachel: you've hired a professional or you're a client and you, or with a therapist, like you don't have to go along with whatever they say.
[00:18:11] And it's, it's easy to get into that power and that really evens the plane to say, everyone has consent in this situation. Right.
[00:18:22] Maz: Absolutely. I think we're so used to consumer culture and I, that's part of what I like sort of attribute it to is like, I pay you, I buy the thing, you give me the healing, and I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. Don't book your agency at the door. Like don't, I don't have the answers, babe. Like I, what you pay me for is to hold the space and to be your teammate in this project.
[00:18:45] I don't have the answers for you. I don't know what to do. I have suggestions, I have ideas, I have experiences that we can apply. But I don't want you to check your agency at the door, and I want you to feel willing to say no. Um, one of my mentors eight years ago told me that it never pays to take someone somewhere They don't wanna go.
[00:19:02] I. I never wanna take a client. I never wanna take a fellow leader. I never wanna take a community member somewhere where they don't wanna go. I always want you to feel confident and able to tell me no, to walk away. To take a break. You know? There's so many moments where I've had clients be like, actually, that doesn't resonate.
[00:19:22] And I'm like, great.
[00:19:25] Maz: Thank you for telling me.
[00:19:26] Rachel: The people please in me that is still recovering just like healed. When you said that, I mean, that's like my ongoing work, but like, oh, I, I could. I could actually take a break or I could like not do the action list that someone recommends or not do these life hacks that people, right, because it's like sometimes we feel like some comfort in just doing what the quote grownup in the room says or the, the, you know, be in, in deference to the person in power, but actually like there's so much growth and it really puts the white patriarchy on its head to break down that differential to say that. Actually me saying, no, me existing here, me going places only I wanna go. so healing. That does so much repair for me. Um, just hearing that,
[00:20:15] Maz: I love hearing that and that's why I practice with new clients. Like one of our prerequisites in our first call is always like, okay, like I'm gonna have you practice telling me no three times. Like let me get it in your body so that when it comes up you feel safe. And you know my response.
[00:20:28] It's like your no is a sacred, if not more sacred than your Yes.
[00:20:32] And we really honor that. Yeah, that that comes straight from my experience in kink community. That's a kink. That's a tenant of um, risk aware kink is that your no is as sacred as your Yes. And that that's when we really trust people. And for so many of us, like what you just said, for so many of us just practicing, that is so valuable 'cause we didn't have a chance to practice that otherwise I.
[00:20:56] Um, I found for myself, I took a break this year from being a part of like business masterminds and in my break I realized like, oh my gosh, like with the work of my therapist, I, I give her so much credit for this, but like, oh my gosh, I was really using transference and like almost creating these like family dynamics and business masterminds where I was doing things to like almost please the other members and the person who was leading it and it became like, wait, I, I
[00:21:24] Rachel: that's
[00:21:24] Maz: do that.
[00:21:25] Rachel: That's so live. 'cause I love like working with people and stuff, but then yeah, what, what family role am I entering into here? Or like gimme the A plus I'm like the A plus kid. Like no, that I am really trying to undo that and get away from that.
[00:21:39] Maz: And that's also why I think like in repair and in our, in our healing work, celebrating every win is so important, even if it's so small. Like I always start my clients with celebrations. We always do like a little guided visualization, and then we do three to five celebrations, and the celebrations can literally be just like, I'm on this call. I woke up this morning 'cause it's just like, let's really celebrate that. Like every little thing gets to count. And I think when we are recovering from people pleasing tendencies, when we are recovering from like taking on certain roles in the family or in different dynamics, like that's just so healing to be like, oh my gosh, I get to just show up here and be celebrated.
[00:22:17] Rachel: It's the antidote to workaholism and productivity, know, focus and all of that stuff that like, you know what, like me putting on clothes is actually pretty much a triumph and I can really, that's not, I'm not saying that to be like, oh, you know, poor little me, but like there are days where that is the case and that is just fine.
[00:22:35] Maz: 100%. And this takes me back to sort of like knowing your capacity. Like if you're like, wow, my capacity today was put on clothes and I'm really proud of that, then today might not be the right day for repair or for conflict resolution. You know, I, I, for me, the metric is always like, if I'm having trouble fixing my bed, we're not gonna have the kind of day where we're gonna do any hard convo. We're not,
[00:22:57] Rachel: Oh,
[00:22:57] Maz: we're not going deep on anything.
[00:23:00] Rachel: in a compliments only kind of space.
[00:23:04] Maz: Yes,
[00:23:05] Rachel: positive feedback only
[00:23:07] that.
[00:23:07] especially when I cook a '
[00:23:08] meal. I say,
[00:23:09] Maz: Yes,
[00:23:09] Rachel: what do you guys think? compliments only.
[00:23:09] Maz: Yes,
[00:23:13] Rachel: I
[00:23:13] Maz: yes. I love that. And then you get to know yourself more, and you get to know your capacity. And then when you have a moment where you really do need to be like. Okay. I'm gonna be rooted because I also let myself sometimes be not rooted. You know, like, okay. Like I think there's this weird burnout when we're sort of like trying to always be on and always be perfect and always be rooted and you know, like down to be adaptable.
[00:23:38] And it's like there's just, we, no, that's not sustainable.
[00:23:41] So we have to have these moments of low capacity.
[00:23:44] Rachel: of a
[00:23:45] Maz: Yes.
[00:23:46] Rachel: sometimes put on with, I know, I guess I know I do like, well this is what I know for my graduate school training and social justice and, and it's all
[00:23:53] Maz: Totally.
[00:23:55] Rachel: Can I just
[00:23:55] Maz: Yeah.
[00:23:57] Rachel: like, not just from the heart, but like, uh, there is some work there and, and that work is important.
[00:24:02] And just like you said, like practicing. No, the more we do it, the more like integral it gets, but like we can exhaust ourselves with like just watching ourselves so carefully all the time. And that's why having relationships where you can be vulnerable and you can and, and not have to watch yourself are so important.
[00:24:19] 'cause then we restore in relationships.
[00:24:21] Maz: Absolutely, and this is why like when I've had to, you know, create repair with clients or with students, it's like I, I always go to my therapist or my supervisor or my mentor first because that's the place where I get to like, let my little toddler tantrum happen. You know, we never want that to happen with the person that we harmed.
[00:24:38] We want that to happen with the people that we're compensating. Or we're in a relationship where we've agreed to that and that's where we get to kind of have those like little moments of
[00:24:50] Rachel: you
[00:24:50] Maz: our own feelings.
[00:24:52] Rachel: I have a financial therapy supervisor and oh my gosh, Kara, if
[00:24:56] Maz: Yes.
[00:24:57] Rachel: rants we have that no one will ever hear and they should never, is so important though that I work it out with her and not with a client. Right. Not with my friends and family.
[00:25:06] Yes.
[00:25:07] Maz: And then you get to turn around and be with your client in a capacity that's actually like. Appropriate in my mind or aligned or what we agreed to in that container. And so I think that's so important and I, that's why the number one thing I tell leaders is like, do not isolate when you make a mistake.
[00:25:21] Do not punish yourself and isolate. Like you need to have the place where you can have those rants, where you can have those discussions, where you can have your emotions and your anger and your narrative of, I tried so hard and it meant, and I hate this. And like, and then you get to turn around and talk to the client or the student or the community member and be like.
[00:25:39] I am so sorry. How can I support you?
[00:25:42] know? Um, it makes me think of this circle of, uh, support, this framework I saw where it's like the people that are the most impacted get repair and support and then like you go further out in the circle to get your support and your care.
[00:25:57] We don't wanna tell the person harmed like how we're feeling harmed. By their harm. We, that belongs in a different concentric circle that doesn't belong in that space. And I think it's a really helpful framework to think of like the way that we, the way that we function and who we call for what and, and like, that's one thing I always think about leadership is like a good leader leads and they protect and they set the space, but then they also make sure that they're resourced. They also make sure that they have the spaces where they're being led and the spaces where they're up here and where they're a colleague. And you know, it's, it's not like I am a leader in every space I.
[00:26:35] It's like there's spaces where I'm a student, there's spaces where I'm the mentee, and then there's the spaces where I'm the leader, I'm the mentor, and we always, I love that about, something I really love about queer culture actually, is that you can be like a trans and queer elder and a trans queer baby at the same time.
[00:26:51] And I'm like, it's so magical that like I have people that I'm like, to them I'm their elder and then to other people like I am just the baby because they're in their fifties and sixties or they've been. You know, open about their gender and sexuality and exploring way longer than I have. And that's something I just love and like, I'm like, I wish we had more understanding and context for that in our greater culture and not just within queer culture.
[00:27:15] Rachel: I wanna make sure we also, we close the
[00:27:16] Maz: Oh
[00:27:18] Rachel: what to
[00:27:19] Maz: yes.
[00:27:19] Rachel: when you don't If you're a participant and not a leader, what are some of your guide, I mean, a
[00:27:23] Maz: Love this.
[00:27:24] I.
[00:27:25] Rachel: but you say in that particular situation?
[00:27:28] Maz: Yeah, as a student, I think knowing what you need from a space is really important. And if you do have any identities where there's a history of violence or oppression and you know that you need more, I. Um, safety because of that, which I really, first of all, I wanna validate, like I know for myself I need more safety than some people that I witnessed, and that's completely valid.
[00:27:50] And okay, that's 'cause of my history. And wanting to make sure that you know what you need and then having no issue walking away, like really trusting that if something isn't giving you what you need, you get to walk away. You get to say no. I think also knowing what your. Tolerance is for giving feedback.
[00:28:10] I know my tolerance is pretty high because I do teach DEI as part of my job and I have the language and I'm ready to rock with a lot of it. I also really enjoy these conversations. Um, that doesn't mean that every trans person or every person of color does, and they don't need to, and so knowing what your thresholds are, for me personally, and I shared it earlier, my threshold is if someone is unwilling to hear me.
[00:28:33] I don't wanna be in that conversation and you know, I have no issue leaving a club or a community and just gently bowing out and being like, this isn't for me. I'm gonna go find a space that is for me. Um, I think that's really, really important. And I also wanna just say that I think a lot of us who. Are in spaces where we're often the only person of our identity, or we feel like, you know, we are more impacted by things than others because of a history of systemic oppression.
[00:29:05] We tend to think it's our responsibility to make spaces for us. Like, okay, no, I'm gonna like figure out how to make this space better for me and personally, I'm like, babe. You don't need that trauma. Like just you get to walk away, you get to go find the space. It's too much. It's too much. I can't tell you how many times I've sat down and like poured my heart out, written, you know, emails and plans for people.
[00:29:29] And, you know, five, 10 years ago was like, it's my job to make myself feel welcome here, because that's, that, you know, was my trauma response. And it's like, no, you don't need to do that. So finding spaces that work for you is so, so, so important. I think knowing. What you need in a space and really vetting those spaces.
[00:29:48] Those spaces do exist. They can be a little harder to find, but, um, vetting them, not checking your agency at the door. Really trusting your gut. I, I'm gonna go back to kink for a second. I know so many people that when they get into the kink space for the first time, they'll reach out to me like, oh my gosh, what's your advice?
[00:30:04] I'm brand new. And I'm always like, okay, you're brand new and kink, but you're not brand new at life. Like you weren't born yesterday. So like. Keep your wits about you. Be in your intuition. Be grounded. Be rooted. Stay real with yourself and be honest about what spaces are for you and what aren't for you.
[00:30:19] And enter with a little bit of hesitance like it is new. Be careful.
[00:30:25] Rachel: This. Like, I feel like we're on the precipice of, you know, online micro communities really blowing up. I mean, it's already happening. I think a collective exhaustion with social media and um, I. You know, I have created a, an online community on a certain topic and, and I'm part of a bunch of them as well, and I love it, love it, love it. But this is really important guidance, I think for anyone who wants to create a community. Like, first off, like your impulse to, I need to make my own space is totally valid and. Sure go for it. But there's there, there's also maybe more to it, like maybe, is it your job to carve out that niche or is, or, or is there something that's already there that you can benefit from and be part of something like it's not your job to break trail all the time necessarily.
[00:31:08] And then also if you do wanna create a community as as a business. 'cause I think everyone's like, oh, memberships, it's such easy money. First off, it's not, it's really hard. And but to like know this responsibility, this isn't just like, oh, I'll make a membership and it's great and I'll have this recurring revenue.
[00:31:24] It's sort of like having a child, like this is a level of responsibility and. Of course the more tender the topic, the certainly the greater their responsibility. Um, which is, you know, really, I kind of of course knew that going into this, but it keeps unfolding itself. The intersection of money and emotions is gonna continue to, um, bring up really tender topics, is gonna bring people in emotional states and, um, to continue to look at our practices and exactly like you said, like what's the plan, what's the repair, what is my support in all of this?
[00:31:57] So this is incredibly helpful for me, and I know I've got other community managers and community, um, hosts listening to this and, and, um, talk to Maz y'all like, get your plan sorted out with Maz because this is so helpful because when another community manager said to me you can only have safety when there's exclusivity. And I was actually wondering,
[00:32:20] Maz: I disagree.
[00:32:22] Rachel: me about this. So I thought this was
[00:32:23] Maz: I totally disagree. Well, I'm curious what else they said before I
[00:32:28] launch into my disagreement.
[00:32:30] Rachel: was you have safety when it's clear about what's not okay and who this isn't for. So I think
[00:32:37] Maz: Okay. I think that's really valid. I think that we want to give people as much information to self-select as possible, and I also really hesitated the word exclusion because to me, exclusion, the history of that actually creates unsafety for the people we're excluding.
[00:32:52] a lot of times when we say we're excluding someone for safety reasons, we're actually pointing the finger at them and saying they're unsafe, which outs them and makes them.
[00:33:00] Like it makes them more vulnerable. So I've been in a lot of places where people say, you know, no, cis men. Cis men are so unsafe. And it's like, okay, I get it. Like I totally understand, but I also think like, let's go to more of a value space. Let's talk about, that's why I think community guidelines and community agreements are so important, and I think it's so important to really make sure that people know what they are when they agree to the space that there's, um. There's consequences, natural consequences involved in that. People know what that process is if they don't follow those community agreements. Uh, because to me, like that's like the lifeblood of any community is like, what are we agreeing to in this space?
[00:33:40] And so I think that's where we build in safety.
[00:33:43] Rachel: maybe
[00:33:43] Maz: Yeah.
[00:33:44] Rachel: when 'cause it's really it's a boundary. What's okay, what's not okay?
[00:33:48] you know, we're really talking like psychographics and behavior, not demographics. And I think there's been
[00:33:54] Maz: Absolutely. I.
[00:33:55] Rachel: Will I help women in their thirties and actually like, and I've really gotten away from that also when I found that like a lot of people outside of my like intended niche were coming to me and I was still doing good work with, oh no, this is a psychographic niche. can
[00:34:10] Maz: Yes, Yes, yes,
[00:34:12] Rachel: if you, you know, read my website and that like vibes with you. really, it does not matter how tall you are or what country you're in or gender. Like I, so I think, I think we need to move more into a psychographic, um, niche when we're looking at this. And like you said, like self-select, like, you know if this is gonna be for you or not. And, and that clarity really helps.
[00:34:35] I do think that helps create that safety.
[00:34:37] Maz: I totally agree, and I think actually like when we separate, like we've been taught to separate by demographics, by gender, by age, by race, by religion, by all these things, and that's. It's so harmful and it's keeping us separated, like it's keeping us separated. Like I, I mean, my clients, I've, let's see, like my age range for coaching clients is 23 to 78. That's one thing that I think keeps coming up with this conversation about, oh, what we need is community. Well, guess what? Babes Community isn't all people that are just like you. Community is someone 50 years older than you, someone, 20 years younger than you. Community is people with, uh, different abilities, different capacities, different skill sets, languages even.
[00:35:17] I don't want an online community where everyone looks or acts or thinks like me. I want an online community where what we have done is we have agreed to some ground rules and some guidelines and some agreements so that we can honor and see each other and be safe in really experiencing our differences and having that collective energy and having that space together. And, and I actually think that like separating by demographics is super harmful and really dangerous. And I think it's something that has put us in danger and kept us separated. So whenever I have some come to me and they're like, I, you know, only wanna work with women and I want you to help me with the language, I'm like, okay, let's first break down why we only wanna work with women like.
[00:35:57] Look, it's valid if you don't have the resources to support a trans woman. Um, you know, be really honest about that. But let's first break that down and really get to the root of that, and you can be in progress with these things. But what I always like to tell people is like, we gotta open up the table.
[00:36:13] We gotta give more people seats. And then also we gotta make sure that anyone we invite to the table gets to be fed. I would never have a dinner party and invite someone with a dietary restriction or requirement and not support them in that.
[00:36:25] Exactly. I'm not gonna like have someone who's gluten intolerant to my house and only have gluten items.
[00:36:32] That's ridiculous. Yeah, exactly. So it's like, so we also, like we, and that's part of also community agreements and why, when I teach people how to write them and how to work with them, and something we've discussed is like, I also want community feedback because I have blind spots, you have blind spots, and we want the community to be bigger than just what we can imagine.
[00:36:49] And so when we invite people into those community agreements, first of all, we get skin in the game. Second of all, we get to hear all these amazing inputs and like experiences, and we really get to make sure that people are feeling safe.
[00:37:02] And, and I just love, I'm like, if community agreements are really about the community, let's get them involved. Let's make it a living, breathing document. Let's make sure people feel covered and safe to engage with people who are different than themselves. Because these community agreements are the fabric, are the connection, are the thing that can protect us and are the thing we can kind of point to when we're having conflict to be like, Hey, we agreed to this.
[00:37:22] This is like a mutual agreement and we wanna really honor that agreement right now. And I think that's one of the reasons that we do write contracts so that when things do go awry, we have something to refer to that we wrote from a place of regulation and vision and grounding.
[00:37:38] So yeah,
[00:37:40] Rachel: boundary. We, we've been talking about
[00:37:41] Maz: exactly.
[00:37:43] Rachel: and a boundary is as much what you will do as what you won't do. And I.
[00:37:47] Maz: Exactly. Exactly.
[00:37:50] Rachel: know, that's the, we're on the same page here that we actually want, is from that kind of stuff. Not like, oh, we're all gonna assume we have the same values. Okay. Maz, could you, could we talk a little bit about the event that we're gonna be doing in a little bit? Um, talk to me. Wait, we just, we just hammered out the title. Everybody. The title is
[00:38:11] Maz: we.
[00:38:12] Rachel: so excited. Word choice. It is cultivating trans safety: increasing equity and addressing queer tax, uh, that we're doing the week of, uh, trans Visibility week, first week of April, and in the Money Healing Club. So we are, you know, we're talking about cultivating trans safety, but also bringing in the, the, um, the financial and economic components of this is like a little bit of a lens into the work that you've been doing and we've been having a lot of fun, uh, working on these slides and stuff.
[00:38:40] Could you share a little bit about this and, uh, where, what you're excited about?
[00:38:46] Maz: I am very excited about this. I think looking at it from a financial lens is so interesting and exciting, and also can help more people relate to it because so many of us can relate to what it feels like to feel limited. Or to not have access to certain things to feel pigeonholed, um, into certain jobs or career choices.
[00:39:05] And you know, one thing I always talk about privilege is like, privilege is a difference of what's on the table. We don't all have the same access to the same options. And so often we hear people criticize people's options, but you didn't know what their, the menu they were choosing from looked like. And when we talk about the queer tax, I mean, we've heard so much about the pink tax.
[00:39:25] Okay. I've heard people talk about the ADHD tax. Well, there's also a queer tax. There's a trans tax, and it's so important to really acknowledge the reality that legislation that limited access has on people's real lives, has on their real mental health, has on their bank accounts. And there's this excellent, excellent documentary that Laverne Cox made called Disclosure.
[00:39:49] And it talks about the representation of especially, um, black trans people in the media. It talks more about all kinds of trans people in the media in the nineties and early two thousands, and the eighties as well. But it mostly focuses on, um, black trans people, which are some of the most vulnerable people in the trans community, especially black trans women and black trans fems.
[00:40:07] And I think it's so important to really honor this. And I, I heard your conversation with River Nice. And you talked a lot about mutual aid, which I really appreciated and something that I think is so important. River was talking about coming to Mutual Aid with this feeling of like. We, it's not like I have more, and I wanna give you something because that is like an inherent river, explained it way better than I'm doing.
[00:40:30] I'm just paraphrasing. It's transactional. Thank you. Thank you. And I think so often with trans justice or with trans issues or with queer issues, we think like, okay, like I can be an ally, I can support them. Or, okay, this affects me because I have a child that's trans, or I have a cousin that's queer, et cetera.
[00:40:46] But really we are so interconnected and trans people and queer people are at the. Front lines of sexual and gender liberation, and we are all benefiting from the work that is being done. And the reason that I'm so excited to be teaching this, um, right around Trans Day of visibility is because visibility without safety is a trap.
[00:41:07] it, it, it, makes you a target, it makes things more dangerous. And one of the ways that people create safety is through financial abundance.
[00:41:16] and to not have access to financial options or abundance is it does create
[00:41:22] danger and it does create moments of really challenging decisions and moments of, um, violence.
[00:41:31] And, and oppression. And so that's something that I'm really excited to talk to talk about is when we're thinking about our money, when we're thinking about our collective finances, when we're thinking about our individual finances, how can we use our financial power to further trans justice and to see it as a collective benefit.
[00:41:51] Not just, I'm doing this 'cause I'm trans, or I'm doing this 'cause I know someone trans, but I'm doing this because I wanna live in a world where the gender binary is less harmful. And I'll be honest, the gender binary harms everyone. For some people it's annoying and painful and for some people it's fatal.
[00:42:06] And so there's a spectrum of harm. But I have taught classes like this to thousands of people. And I know because I see it in my dms, in my, in my email. In my inbox, like I know how many people have been harmed by this, and I think there's this thing that where we talk about like gender inequity and we talk about men and women and feminism.
[00:42:25] Amazing. Great. Okay. We gotta expand that discussion. It has to include queer and trans people. It just has to, and I think that's something that is so important to start to look at and what the work you're doing, to me, it's so liberatory teaching people about personal finances so that they can have more agency in this space.
[00:42:44] It's so important for anyone impacted by the patriarchy, by white supremacy, by, you know, exploitative capitalism. So I'm like, this is a trans issue. This is a queer issue. And then we wanna be folding in other queer and trans issues so that people are aware of them and people know that they exist. And as we work to liberate ourselves, we're also making sure that like, you know, rising tides raise all boats.
[00:43:06] We're making sure that everybody in our community is safe and healthy and you know, is, has access.
[00:43:13] Rachel: a broken system, but heck, I would
[00:43:15] Maz: Yeah.
[00:43:16] Rachel: than alone. Because then the broke, because then the broken system will hurt you more. But if we link arms like that is how we protect ourselves as well as, uh, instigate change. I mean, this is what happens.
[00:43:30] We actually, we read the financial Activist Playbook last month in the club and that really brought about a lot. Like, oh, I can learn to like, quote, be good with money Be an agent for change where I don't donate all my money away. Right. Like that is that transactional
[00:43:47] um, we had such a good conversation about that, that actually River joined, which was so lovely. Um, so yeah, those are, oh man, we have so many great resources. I'm gonna put all of these, I'll find all of these resources in that that you're referencing and I will put them all in the show notes 'cause this is so good. Okay. Yeah. Okay. So everyone come
[00:44:04] Maz: love that. I'd love to add one more thing to that if it feels possible. Um, yeah, I think the other thing too that I was so amazed with, with your conversation with River and your podcast, um, with River is like the ingenuity, the creativity, and the the joy, like I think we talk so much about trans issues and something we talk a lot about in trans community is trans joy.
[00:44:25] And trans joy is so powerful and so magical. We can learn so much from it. It can just be like such an inspirational space and there's, there's ingenuity and the diversity of our communities is what helps us have ingenuity and helps us be really creative and get out of these paradigms of like individual.
[00:44:42] You know, like the individual focus we've been taught. So that's something that I also am like, yes, why are we not, you know, why are we not working, working with each other? Because we all have such, such different strengths and we can bring so much into the, into the space, but we need to feel safe enough to do that.
[00:44:58] We need to feel safe enough to be together in community.
[00:45:01] Rachel: learn better when we feel safe. We learn and we grow. When we feel safe, when we
[00:45:05] Maz: Totally,
[00:45:06] Rachel: and grow. That's just the the fact
[00:45:08] Maz: totally.
[00:45:10] Rachel: wanna ask you a question that I ask all my guests. I want you to go with a first intuitive hit. Or if you've already prepared, that's just fine.
[00:45:17] But something I ask is, I want you to picture your money as a creature, real or imagined. is the first thing that comes to mind? Don't overthink it. You can just be intuitive. What's the first image hit you get?
[00:45:31] Maz: Yeah, I feel like you're gonna really, I'm like, oh no, you're gonna really see me the, oh no, it's so vulnerable. Well, my first intuitive hit was like a new baby dolphin, and then my next intuitive hit was like a, like a, a wild beast. So somewhere between a new baby dolphin and a wild beast.
[00:45:51] Rachel: right. And maybe there's some combo here. Yeah. And as with this image, what does this image, this creature, um, and maybe it's sort of like forming as we're talking a little bit, does this creature want for you?
[00:46:07] Maz: Definitely space
[00:46:10] spaciousness.
[00:46:12] Rachel: for you. Yeah. Yeah. it might have some ideas for how that can happen too. These are talk about allies. These, uh, these internal parts we have, um, can be such great allies for us as well. And our, uh, creative visual parts of our brain are, uh, is a very wise thing with our money, so thank you.
[00:46:35] Okay. Will you let me know if that, if that image comes to clarity, will you. If you would like to
[00:46:41] Maz: I'm, I'm gonna go journal about it. 'cause I'm like, wow, what a different, I had such a dichotomy. I guess I'm in a moment of real transition.
[00:46:49] Rachel: there's two. There's no right or wrong. Well, this is wonderful, Maz. Thank you so much for the time and to really share the, the work that you do and also who you are. It's all, I know, it's kind of one and the same. Um, but I really appreciate you sharing all of this. You're incredibly wise and um, I am psyched to know where you're gonna be in five years. It's gonna be huge. It's gonna be beyond, it's gonna be absolutely beyond on like expert level shit. um, I just so appreciate you being on the podcast.
[00:47:20] Maz: Thank you so much Rachel, and thank you for making the club for us and like holding the space and being a leader that's open to exploring ways to grow together. It just, it means so much. It's such a beautiful thing to be a part of, so I really appreciate that. I, I heard you on a podcast about a year ago and I was like, I must, I just must know more.
[00:47:37] I just have to know more. So thank you so much.
[00:47:43] Rachel: Thank you, Maz.
[00:47:48] Thanks for listening to the Money Healing Club podcast. You can find resources and links from this episode in the show notes at moneyhealingclub. com slash podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, you'd probably really love my free email course on curbing impulse spending with compassion and mindfulness.
[00:48:04] Check it out at moneyhealingclub.com/challenge. Do you have a question about how financial therapy might help you? Leave me a voicemail at moneyhealingclub.com. And I might answer your question in a future episode of the pod. We are in this together and I really appreciate it.